GOA suing FL over Open Carry Ban & Under-21 Carry Ban.

[Bowhntr6pt]

See you post below. Open carry is done by cops and military. I doubt they would gain tactical advantage by carrying concealed. Maybe you could explain how hiding a gun prior to using it is an advantage?

Posted by Bowhntr6pt
"Luis, aka Miami_JBT, is not some random dude on the internet.

Luis and GOA are doing what should have been done perhaps fifty years ago... that is... fighting back regardless of the topic. Had people fought back then, like Luis does now, I doubt very seriously we as gun owners would be behind the 8-ball like we are now.

Just because TOPIC A does not directly appeal to YOU, it does not mean it can't benefit you in the long run.

As I see it, the other side has exploited the differences within the gun-owning community quite well... it even shows in this thread.

I think open carry is foolish... but I support it as it simply adds back one more aspect of our rights.

As the State Director, Luis' fight is right here in Florida dealing with Florida-specific issues.

I think some of you folks are completely missing the end-game objective."

Thanks for proving my point...

You chose to highlight the fact I personally don't think OC is smart vs. pick up on the fact I support others' right to do so... thank you.

 

[Bowhntr6pt]

See you post below. Open carry is done by cops and military. I doubt they would gain tactical advantage by carrying concealed. Maybe you could explain how hiding a gun prior to using it is an advantage?

Posted by Bowhntr6pt
"Luis, aka Miami_JBT, is not some random dude on the internet.

Luis and GOA are doing what should have been done perhaps fifty years ago... that is... fighting back regardless of the topic. Had people fought back then, like Luis does now, I doubt very seriously we as gun owners would be behind the 8-ball like we are now.

Just because TOPIC A does not directly appeal to YOU, it does not mean it can't benefit you in the long run.

As I see it, the other side has exploited the differences within the gun-owning community quite well... it even shows in this thread.

I think open carry is foolish... but I support it as it simply adds back one more aspect of our rights.

As the State Director, Luis' fight is right here in Florida dealing with Florida-specific issues.

I think some of you folks are completely missing the end-game objective."

Seriously... comparing cops/LE to civilian carry in the public domain?

Many agencies support CC by plain clothes personnel WHEN FEASIBLE.

If you think it's all the same, LE, citizens, and military, then we are worlds apart.

 

[B52]

Seriously... comparing cops/LE to civilian carry in the public domain?

Many agencies support CC by plain clothes personnel WHEN FEASIBLE.

If you think it's all the same, LE, citizens, and military, then we are worlds apart.

They carry concealed too hide their the fact they are a cop. So that you will unknowingly provide information.

You sound more Fudd than pro gun for citizens.

 

[Bowhntr6pt]

They carry concealed too hide their the fact they are a cop. So that you will unknowingly provide information.

You sound more Fudd than pro gun for citizens.

LOL... have a nice night Sir...

 

[B52]

LOL... have a nice night Sir...

Ok you can remain specious.

 

[Miami_JBT]

They carry concealed too hide their the fact they are a cop. So that you will unknowingly provide information.

You sound more Fudd than pro gun for citizens.

Bowhntr6pt isn't a fudd. From the classes he's put on, the closet thing to it being fudd is the BBQ. Using NVGs with Suppressors in his classes is everything but fudd.

Just because he won't OC, doesn't mean he doesn't support it. I know Bowhntr6pt is pro-open carry and supports people having the choice.

 

[DustyDog]

Seriously... comparing cops/LE to civilian carry in the public domain?

Many agencies support CC by plain clothes personnel WHEN FEASIBLE.

If you think it's all the same, LE, citizens, and military, then we are worlds apart.

Sorry, but any time someone expresses the belief that the clothes people wear at work makes them "special", I have to beg to differ.

Yes, there are some in the military and law enforcement that I wouldn't want to tangle with... intellectually or physically. But there are just as many (percentage-wise, and thus more in real numbers) backwoods-types who have never worked for the government who are just as capable.

The fact that some government employees get to play with taxpaying Citizen-provided toys that are prohibited to those very same Citizens is the sign of a problem, not evidence of any superiority on the part of those government workers. Anyone who believes otherwise is part of the "I support the Second Amendment, but... " crowd. The question of whether the hired guns of government were a "special class" of Humans above the average Citizen was put to bed in the Revolutionary War as well as in the subsequent Constitution.

The first video below is an example of why I would never let people in "special clothes" tell me that I'm not "qualified" or "foolish" to carry a firearm the very same way that they do... you know, on account of their being "highly-trained" and all. I walk around in the same world they do. If it's "foolish" for me to open carry, then it's foolish for them as well. The second video below explains what too many Americans have forgotten about "safety and security".



In the Buffalo chase, 150(?) shots fired by cops, suspect hit 3 times... and even then only at the very end. Three cops shot, two by other officers. The holes in cop's windshield were from the cop firing through his own windshield.

When Officer Wilson says "I'm hit!", he was hit by flying glass from when Nagy fired through the windshield, yet Nagy announces on the radio "My partner has been hit!", furthering the feeding frenzy. Excuse me if I don't see this as an example of "superior tactical prowess".
https://www.wgrz.com/article/news/c...urder/71-4ed6ba57-44d5-4c8b-834a-7c0d089a4b47

 

[Bowhntr6pt]

Sorry, but any time someone expresses the belief that the clothes people wear at work makes them "special", I have to beg to differ.

Yes, there are some in the military and law enforcement that I wouldn't want to tangle with... intellectually or physically. But there are just as many (percentage-wise, and thus more in real numbers) backwoods-types who have never worked for the government who are just as capable.

The fact that some government employees get to play with taxpaying Citizen-provided toys that are prohibited to those very same Citizens is the sign of a problem, not evidence of any superiority on the part of those government workers. Anyone who believes otherwise is part of the "I support the Second Amendment, but... " crowd. The question of whether the hired guns of government were a "special class" of Humans above the average Citizen was put to bed in the Revolutionary War as well as in the subsequent Constitution.

The first video below is an example of why I would never let people in "special clothes" tell me that I'm not "qualified" or "foolish" to carry a firearm the very same way that they do... you know, on account of their being "highly-trained" and all. I walk around in the same world they do. If it's "foolish" for me to open carry, then it's foolish for them as well. The second video below explains what too many Americans have forgotten about "safety and security".



In the Buffalo chase, 150(?) shots fired by cops, suspect hit 3 times... and even then only at the very end. Three cops shot, two by other officers. The holes in cop's windshield were from the cop firing through his own windshield.

When Officer Wilson says "I'm hit!", he was hit by flying glass from when Nagy fired through the windshield, yet Nagy announces on the radio "My partner has been hit!", furthering the feeding frenzy. Excuse me if I don't see this as an example of "superior tactical prowess".
https://www.wgrz.com/article/news/c...urder/71-4ed6ba57-44d5-4c8b-834a-7c0d089a4b47

What does any of your post have to do with 1) I personally don’t think open carry in the public by citizens is tactically sound, or 2) I fully support your right to do so?

Just like the other guy, you too prove my point.

 

[sloporsche]

What does any of your post have to do with 1) I personally don’t think open carry in the public by citizens is tactically sound, or 2) I fully support your right to do so?

Just like the other guy, you too prove my point.

Just as i said here posts ago.....i am not sold on the idea of open carry , i am pretty sure i will not BUT i will not vote against the law allowing it . My concerns are weapon retention and i do not want to draw [pun] undue attention to me .

 

[Bowhntr6pt]

Just as i said here posts ago.....i am not sold on the idea of open carry , i am pretty sure i will not BUT i will not vote against the law allowing it . My concerns are weapon retention and i do not want to draw [pun] undue attention to me .

Exactly.

But as you can see, in typical internet gun board fashion, some people make more of a to-do over what you don’t like vs. what you support.

I don’t care about differences in “likes “ among us gun owners/supporters, I care more about actually supporting each other.

A concept quite foreign to some here.

 

[DustyDog]

What does any of your post have to do with 1) I personally don’t think open carry in the public by citizens is tactically sound

Implying that open carry "in the public" by cops is "tactically sound". Are they not "citizens"?!? How about cops open carrying in the station? Is that "tactically sound? (see vid below) Holy Jesus... there's nothing special about cops... the pros & cons apply equally to both:



(If you're not signed in to YouTube, I'm guessing you won't be able to watch the vid. But the title is "Teen disarms LASD deputy, fatally shoots herself", which tells you all you need to know)

What the Buffalo and LA videos (along with hundreds of others) prove is that there are just as many flaming idiots in law enforcement as there are in the general population... because both groups are composed of Humans. There is no "well, the rules are different for us because we're special". That's a favorite myth of totalitarians:

"Everyone beneath us is equal".

I, on the other hand, believe that there are competent and incompetent cops. Why should they all carry openly if it's not "tactically sound"?

Cops accidentally shoot themselves, other cops, and hostages, they have their firearms snatched... name any reason the anti-2A crowd puts forth as to why "civilians" shouldn't be allowed to bear arms, openly or concealed, they're all based on the mythology of the God-like government worker.

Hell, one guy I worked with who grew up in communist Poland told me... and he appeared to honestly believe this... that cops should occasionally beat random people just to show the "public" (as you refer to them) who's boss. That's communist mentality, and not how it's supposed to be here. Finally, as someone else said elsewhere recently:

"All anyone needs to realize is that even the best operators in the world are still only human."

FACT.

 

[DustyDog]

I don’t care about differences in “likes “ among us gun owners/supporters, I care more about actually supporting each other.

A concept quite foreign to some here.

Really? By invoking the LEO/military vs. "the public" mythology? Them vs. us??? That's what caught my eye:

"I personally (as an LEO who carries openly, or who at least who believes that other LEOs should carry openly while "in the public") don’t think open carry in the public by citizens is tactically sound"

 

[Bowhntr6pt]

Implying that open carry "in the public" by cops is "tactically sound". Are they not "citizens"?!? How about cops open carrying in the station? Is that "tactically sound? (see vid below) Holy Jesus... there's nothing special about cops... the pros & cons apply equally to both:



What the Buffalo and LA videos (along with hundreds of others) prove is that there are just as many flaming idiots in law enforcement as there are in the general population... because both groups are composed of Humans. There is no "well, the rules are different for us because we're special". That's a favorite myth of totalitarians:

"Everyone beneath us is equal".

I, on the other hand, believe that there are competent and incompetent cops. Why should they all carry openly if it's not "tactically sound"?

Cops accidentally shoot themselves, other cops, and hostages, they have their firearms snatched... name any reason the anti-2A crowd puts forth as to why "civilians" shouldn't be allowed to bear arms, openly or concealed, they're all based on the mythology of the God-like government worker.

Hell, one guy I worked with who grew up in communist Poland told me... and he appeared to honestly believe this... that cops should occasionally beat random people just to show the "public" (as you refer to them) who's boss. That's communist mentality, and not how it's supposed to be here. Finally, as someone else said elsewhere recently:

"All anyone needs to realize is that even the best operators in the world are still only human."

FACT.

Damn guy, are you that triggered by some stranger on the internet?

Please feel free to ignore anything I post.

 

[DustyDog]

Damn guy, are you that triggered by some stranger on the internet?

Please feel free to ignore anything I post.

Well, I guess you won that one, didn't you?

I knew you'd come around...

 

[Bowhntr6pt]

Really? By invoking the LEO/military vs. "the public" mythology? Them vs. us??? That's what caught my eye:

"I personally (as an LEO who carries openly, or who at least who believes that other LEOs should carry openly while "in the public") don’t think open carry in the public by citizens is tactically sound"

I have no idea how or why you interpreted any of my words to insinuate I think cops are above citizens.

Cops in plain clothes traditionally OC carry as do military. Not because they are a better class, I thought I cleared that up, apparently not and you choose to read into my words.

If you can’t wrap your head around the fact CC has a tactical advantage over OC then perhaps you can strengthen your opinion by citing some credentials that support your position vs. just some guy on the internet that twists a person’s words.

To be clear… no one is more special than the other, I support your choice to OC, I personally think it isn’t tactically sound.

It’s ok to have a different opinion.

 

[Bowhntr6pt]

Really? By invoking the LEO/military vs. "the public" mythology? Them vs. us??? That's what caught my eye:

"I personally (as an LEO who carries openly, or who at least who believes that other LEOs should carry openly while "in the public") don’t think open carry in the public by citizens is tactically sound"

My use of the word citizen was not meant to infer cops or military, who open carry as a matter of institutional structure, are better or safer.

Sorry you apparently interpreted that way, it was not meant to categorize people in terms of who is better or more deserving of the practice.

Does that clear things up?

Like I said, some agencies encourage CC for plain clothes personal.

Our agency has counseled officers for OC while OFF DUTY. I’ve worked for several agencies and ALL frowned upon OFF DUTY folks open carrying, especially when out of our jurisdiction.

There are other cops on here, maybe they can chime in on their agency policy on off duty and on duty carry in plain clothing.

 

[DustyDog]

I have no idea how or why you interpreted any of my words to insinuate I think cops are above citizens.

Cops in plain clothes traditionally OC carry as do military. Not because they are a better class, I thought I cleared that up.

I personally think it isn’t tactically sound. (for the "public", that is)

But yet you think it's "tactically sound" for cops... even plainclothes... to carry openly in the public. Even in a crowded biker bar, for example?

OK, I give up (just kidding!)

Cops have no idea where they're going when they go on shift. I, on the other hand, as a "civilian", can choose to switch to concealed carry when heading to a crowded, alcohol-free disco, for example. Which may bring us to the resolution of this entire "CB radio Ninja Fight":

I am not talking about open carrying 24/7, regardless of circumstances... I shouldn't do it, and cops shouldn't do it. So tell me that it's not "tactically sound" for a (civilian) farmer, in the middle of nowhere, who has to get on public roads to access his various parcels, to carry openly.

I would agree that it's not "tactically sound" for a secret agent to carry openly when operating in an adversarial country that doesn't allow civilian firearm ownership... but that's not what or where I am.

 

[blair_heavenwood]

But yet you think it's "tactically sound" for cops... even plainclothes... to carry openly in the public. Even in a crowded biker bar, for example?

OK, I give up (just kidding!)

Cops have no idea where they're going when they go on shift. I, on the other hand, as a "civilian", can choose to switch to concealed carry when heading to a crowded, alcohol-free disco, for example. Which may bring us to the resolution of this entire "CB radio Ninja Fight":

I am not talking about open carrying 24/7, regardless of circumstances... I shouldn't do it, and cops shouldn't do it. So tell me that it's not "tactically sound" for a (civilian) farmer, in the middle of nowhere, who has to get on public roads to access his various parcels, to carry openly.

I would agree that it's not "tactically sound" for a secret agent to carry openly when operating in an adversarial country that doesn't allow civilian firearm ownership... but that's not what or where I am.

Yes.

I used to live in Montgomery, AL. Edge of the hood. Had a concealed carry. Used to get harassed and "tested" when I first moved in. My "neighbors" coming over to have chit chats while scoping my stuff out, asking for money, etc. The types of people you don't want inside your bubble, but what can you do? It's a public street. But AL is an open-carry state, so I holstered up a nice stainless GP-100 and went out to work on my car. The usual suspects came off the porch and headed over to "see how I was doing," and when I turned around with a big smile and greeting in return, and they saw the revolver on my hip, they beat feet. I never had an issue again, and I went back to concealed carry.

The point of this story is that neither carry style is objectively superior to the other. They both are suited well to different scenarios. My goal is to NOT have to shoot someone, and in this case, the deterrent effect of open carry worked to de-escalate away from what could have become a use-of-force scenario.

 

[Miami_JBT]

Concealed Carry has advantages as does Open Carry. Both need to be fully legal in Florida. Both are tools to keep in the toolbox. Use different tools for different purposes.

 

[Snake-Eyes]

So, to sum up:

1) Lots of opinions on when/where/who “should” OC vs CC.
2) ALL agree that the RIGHT to OC and CC is infringed under current Florida statutes.
3) GOA is fighting on multiple fronts in multiple states to fix government overreach, including here in Florida.
4) If you aren’t a member or Life Member of the GOA, maybe rethink your discretionary fund allocation priorities.

Good stuff, gents.