FBI shoots a man during an early morning raid

[Longtooth]

Yep. Better to say nothing.

Not defending this guy. He has zero impact on my life. My point is, there's always someone within the "protect and serve" industry looking for an opportunity to make a name for themself/score some points, by doing the "right thing." "Results" = prestige, promotion, and secures the budget.

FWIW, when considering "threats," intent and ability to carry out the threat are significant factors that need to be considered/weighed. 99% of threats are likely just someone talking @#$%/venting. Meh.

In the PR campaign against the mentally disadvantaged, anything that can be presented in a 20-second "news" clip that makes the public feel like their "freedoms" and tax dollars are being confiscated in the name of security, for the chi'rens, is a win. At the least, it justifies/secures current budget/manpower; maybe get's someone recognized/promoted.

Select an easy target. Take it down with excessive/overwhelming force, for safety. Much safer for those carrying out the "hit," only one side left to tell the story, and the sheeple have heard/seen all they want to, and will give up anything for more of it. Even you...

This was my concern. Did the 75 year old guy taking care of his disabled son present a "credible threat"?

We don't have all the facts and likely never will. I just hate seeing the government do things like this.

Was it stupid to say what he aledgely said? Yes
Did it warrant the response it got

boomer mentality

^^^ I can't help but wonder if it's just this.

According to this article, he was only 74 but rarely left the home

Utah man killed after threats against Biden believed government was corrupt and overreaching

Family members of an armed Utah man who was killed by FBI agents after making threats against President Joe Biden are describing him as a gun enthusiast who was worried about “a corrupt and overreaching government.”

apnews.com

Dude was in his late 70's, obese, and barely mobile. They keep flashing old pictures of him, but as his neighbors say he couldn't get around much. There was a lot of possible alternatives to handling this. Since its the FBI, its under a microscope and of course they are not helping the situation by being transparent.

 

[Longtooth]

This was the family's comment on the incident.



Craig Robertson's family statement in full
'We, the family of Craig Deeluew Robertson, are shocked and devastated by the senseless and tragic killing of our beloved father and brother, and we fervently mourn the loss of a good and decent man. The Craig Robertson we knew was a kind and generous person who was always willing to assist another in need, even when advanced age, limited mobility, and other physical challenges made it more difficult and painful for him to do so. He often used his expert woodworking skills to craft beautiful and creative items for others, including toys such as sleighs, rocking horses, and bubble gum dispensers for the children of friends and neighbors at Christmas time. He was active in his local church congregation and loved the Lord Jesus Christ with all his heart. He was a devoted dog lover all his life, and he lavished his animals with love and affection. He was a lover of history and an avid reader of every kind of book. In his younger years, he was a sportsman and hunter. He was a firearm enthusiast, collector and gunsmith, who staunchly supported the constitutionally protected right to keep and bear arms for the purposes of providing food and protection for his family and home. As a safety inspector in the steel industry, he worked diligently and conscientiously to safeguard the lives and well-being of untold thousands who would use, and benefit from, the numerous industrial and public works projects he was responsible for during the course of a decades-long career. Craig loved this country with all his heart. He saw it as a God-inspired and God-blessed land of liberty. He was understandably frustrated and distraught by the present and on-going erosions to our constitutionally protected freedoms and the rights of free citizens wrought by what he, and many others in this nation, observed to be a corrupt and overreaching government. As an elderly–and largely homebound–man, there was very little he could do but exercise his First Amendment right to free speech and voice his protest in what has become the public square of our age–the internet and social media. Though his statements were intemperate at times, he has never, and would never, commit any act of violence against another human being over a political or philosophical disagreement. As our family processes the grief and pain of our loss, we would have it be known that we hold no personal animosity towards those individuals who took part in the ill-fated events of the morning of August 9, 2023, which resulted in Craig’s death. We ask that the media and public respect our family members' privacy and give us the time and space needed to come to terms with the sad tragedy of these events.'

 

[RHINOWSO]

They don’t even do video interviews, still do written notes. That alone should set the ole spidey sense a tingling…

Yeah if I was ever required to talk to them, the first thing I'd setup would be an HD video recorder.

"You guys don't mind this, do you???"

 

[IronBeard]

Yeah if I was ever required to talk to them, the first thing I'd setup would be an HD video recorder.

"You guys don't mind this, do you???"

First thing is to read the book, You Have The Right To Remain Innocent. You are required to produce identity, and say nothing more than needed to relay why you are where you are, and what you are doing right then and there. Invoke your 6th Amendment rights; say no more without counsel, and answer only written questions beyond those above. Seriously, look for that book.

In the end, IMO, this guy telling agents to come back with a warrant, that hit a nerve, and we're seeing what we're allowed to see of the outcome.

 

[shootnstarz]

Hell, just a platoon? Why didn't the fbi take a whole company? Just think of the bragging rights !

 

[Roaster's Gallery]

First thing is to read the book, You Have The Right To Remain Innocent. You are required to produce identity, and say nothing more than needed to relay why you are where you are, and what you are doing right then and there. Invoke your 6th Amendment rights; say no more without counsel, and answer only written questions beyond those above. Seriously, look for that book.

In the end, IMO, this guy telling agents to come back with a warrant, that hit a nerve, and we're seeing what we're allowed to see of the outcome.

I don't think the dead guy was a fan of remaining silent.

 

[fl57caveman]

I don't think the dead guy was a fan of remaining silent.

shouldn't have been killed for voicing what millions are thinking.... there is such a thing as hostage/crisis negotiators , to talk people down from the stupid ledge that they put themselves on..



meanwhile, democrats and liberals can say anything they want about trump, conservatives and face no negative feedback...

 

[Snake-Eyes]

Here’s the alleged warrant paperwork. I think I attached the PDF to this post. We’ll see if it works...

Seems like the 75-year-old made a bunch of specific and detailed threatening posts on social media. Stupid.

However, the warrant seemed based entirely on those posts. The SWAT seemed “justified” entirely on those posts. Doesn’t appear that any neighbors, family, or fellow church members were approached. After the initial visit by agents in March, the “suspect” wouldn’t have been “alerted” or tipped-off to an investigation if interviews were done. So why no further investigation other than what the agent could read on a computer screen?

In my opinion, he shouldn’t have made such stupid posts. However, his arrest warrant was executed with the intent of “execution”. What did they expect him to do? NOT pick up a weapon when people are attacking his home? Especially if all they knew was what was allegedly posted on the internet?

He was a grumpy old man. They could’ve intercepted him after he came home from church, parked his car in the driveway and got out to walk to his front door. He wasn’t gonna out run them.

This was either a very poorly executed warrant or a very professionally executed suspect.

Either way, the FBI was wrong on this one.

 

[BluesBrother]

Here’s the alleged warrant paperwork. I think I attached the PDF to this post. We’ll see if it works...

Seems like the 75-year-old made a bunch of specific and detailed threatening posts on social media. Stupid.

However, the warrant seemed based entirely on those posts. The SWAT seemed “justified” entirely on those posts. Doesn’t appear that any neighbors, family, or fellow church members were approached. After the initial visit by agents in March, the “suspect” wouldn’t have been “alerted” or tipped-off to an investigation if interviews were done. So why no further investigation other than what the agent could read on a computer screen?

In my opinion, he shouldn’t have made such stupid posts. However, his arrest warrant was executed with the intent of “execution”. What did they expect him to do? NOT pick up a weapon when people are attacking his home? Especially if all they knew was what was allegedly posted on the internet?

He was a grumpy old man. They could’ve intercepted him after he came home from church, parked his car in the driveway and got out to walk to his front door. He wasn’t gonna out run them.

This was either a very poorly executed warrant or a very professionally executed suspect.

Either way, the FBI was wrong on this one.

Could have been suicide by cop.

 

[Snake-Eyes]

Could have been suicide by cop.

True. Unfortunate that he was handed the opportunity on a silver platter, then...


Edit to clarify:
I don’t think he was looking to end his own life. “Suicide by cop” is a convenient conclusion for people to gift the FBI.
“Tragic sequence of events” blah blah blah.
“No one to blame here, except the grumpy old veteran... move along.”

 

[BluesBrother]

True. Unfortunate that he was handed the opportunity on a silver platter, then...

He created the opportunity for himself. We don't know what was going through his head. A sound mind would have known that if I dress up in a ghillie suit and threaten people that's not going to go well for me. I've never been on a SWAT team. However, I believe they're sent only when the situation is extreme and dire. They're trained to respond accordingly. I'm not taking a side. Who threatens others and posts pictures of themselves doing that in a ghillie suit? If I were a SWAT member I would not be thinking I'm going to a pinata party.

 

[Snake-Eyes]

The picture of him in a Ghillie suit was from 2009 or something. Had nothing to do with a threat. The FBI used the photo as evidence that he once owned a Ghillie suit, so when he posted that he “dusted it off” they assumed it was plausible that he still owned it.

Yeah, his posts were ill-advised, but ALL of the cause for caution with him (in the warrant request) were online postings.

One recent, after his death, story has him holding a pistol while confronting fiber/internet installers (for the neighbor), who were on his property. They said they knocked to let him know but no one answered. They didn’t like the way he was “waving the gun around”, so they called the police. Cops go to his door, and he answers with an AR-15 hangin on his chest. If those officers didn’t feel threatened enough to take it further, then it seems like it’s just a guy who literally wants everyone to stay off his lawn.

We’ll never know his side of the story, though.
FBI SWAT killed him.

 

[Gumby Hunter]

I haven't seen mention of the case yet. Not sure what's going on.
But like with the Waco and Ruby Ridge, all the others, they can simply wait and nab the guys in public when they leave the house. They won't be as armed, less neighbors in risk, less hassle, less tactical people blowing things up, just all around better.
I only see these type operations being needed for active shooter and hostage situations only. You come unannounced in the night and you're bound to meet resistance. I don't see why this is still being allowed to happen when it's way over the top level of force and danger needed.

They wanted you and I to see just how they roll, how they will do this to anyone they want to. The guy did his Rambo of the internet impression and they decided not to try and de-escalate the situation. He told them to come back with a warrant, this was in his rights but they decided to blow him away anyway

 

[BluesBrother]

The picture of him in a Ghillie suit was from 2009 or something. Had nothing to do with a threat. The FBI used the photo as evidence that he once owned a Ghillie suit, so when he posted that he “dusted it off” they assumed it was plausible that he still owned it.

Yeah, his posts were ill-advised, but ALL of the cause for caution with him (in the warrant request) were online postings.

One recent, after his death, story has him holding a pistol while confronting fiber/internet installers (for the neighbor), who were on his property. They said they knocked to let him know but no one answered. They didn’t like the way he was “waving the gun around”, so they called the police. Cops go to his door, and he answers with an AR-15 hangin on his chest. If those officers didn’t feel threatened enough to take it further, then it seems like it’s just a guy who literally wants everyone to stay off his lawn.

We’ll never know his side of the story, though.
FBI SWAT killed him.

Again, I'm not taking sides but I do have a dog in this fight. Again, I repeat, who is armed wearing a ghillie suit on the internet? An assassin? SWAT found the picture. It doesn't matter that it was years old. Nothing ever disappears once on the internet. Who threatens utility works with a pistol even if they stepped on his grass? It's these kind of crazy people that label legitimate 2A supporters as extreme. It's why the first thing the anti s demand is more gun legislation and gun registration. I'm rather weary of it all and of crazies. I'm sorry, the man did it to himself. SWAT facilitated what he had to know would be inevitable. He was hell bent on portraying this persona. Darwin.

 

[Southalabama]

In my younger years I commanded a group of door kickers, I wasn’t one. When they made a threat assessment I gave them the resources they needed. I wasn’t going to play arm chair quarterback and second guess. Their life was on the line every time they went through the door. Coulda, shoulda and maybes don’t cut it.

The only thing I’d question in this case is who made the threat assessment and I wouldn’t question the boots on the ground.

 

[Snake-Eyes]

We’re all on a list.
We’re all being watched and tracked and catalogued.
Heck, most of us were on watchlists the moment we took the oath and put on a uniform.
This is a Forum full of active, former, and retired law enforcement, military, and first responders. Predominantly conservatives. Predominantly Constitutionalists.

The internet is the modern town square or local pub. The “anonymity factor” acts like too much alcohol: it makes some people act stupid and say stupid stuff.

He was definitely not what most of us want labeled as a poster child example of who we all are. Most US Citizens are tired of the BS from DC. The Constitution allows us to voice those opinions.

US Code puts certain phrasing (threats) in a different category.

He made detailed threats. So go talk to him.

He was 75 years old and mobility limited.
The SWAT tactics were overkill. They just used the impending visit from the Puppet-in-Chief as an excuse for a rush job.

Once they had the green light, the outcome was all too predictable.

I don’t condone his actions.
The FBI didn’t handle the situation as professionally as the circumstances would suggest.

 

[OperationalPinecone]

Is there anything actually professional from the Alphabet Boys?

 

[Snake-Eyes]

In my younger years I commanded a group of door kickers, I wasn’t one. When they made a threat assessment I gave them the resources they needed. I wasn’t going to play arm chair quarterback and second guess. Their life was on the line every time they went through the door. Coulda, shoulda and maybes don’t cut it.

The only thing I’d question in this case is who made the threat assessment and I wouldn’t question the boots on the ground.

So from your perspective, if the threat assessment was inaccurate, and the old man died for preventable reasons, what is the way forward?


I can understand giving those in your command every available advantage, but what is the person who is “erroneously SWAT’d” supposed to do?


Edit to add: I’m genuinely curious how the SWAT team gets its info and justification. One problem with cases like this one is “oh well he should’ve just complied” comments.
If someone is breaking into my house, I’m not going to lay down and comply. I’m not a criminal. I’ve done nothing wrong. I’ve made no threats. I’ve broken no laws. Whoever they are, they’ve got the wrong house. It’s on them what happens next; not me.

 

[DAS HUGH!]

Let's put it this way. If the guy was in a terror network and or a super legit deadly, lethal threat.... They would most definitely try to nab him when he leaves home and by surprise so no one gets hurt.
Think about that for a minute... let that simmer.
The very act of them raiding you in your home should imply that you're a low threat, or he was such a bad threat it was worth going in then and there, despite the whole house maybe being wired to blow and killing all the cops, neighbors, God knows what else. Risks be damned... the worst of the worst, above and beyond terror cells etc.
Which was he?

 

[Southalabama]

Unfortunately big government alphabet organizations never seem to critique their own failures. We will never know who drew up the raid plan and approved it. Timing suggests they weren’t going for a surrender.
It’s the individuals who made the assessment who should be reviewed. The men on the ground carried out the plan.