CC Pistol with Optics

[JWlineman]

 

[JWlineman]

Thinking of getting a pistol with red dot type optics for CC. For those who CC with optics, how was the transition? Any pointers or suggestions of things to look for and to stay away from? What pistol and Optics combination do you use or recommend? Many thanks.

What make CC pistol do you have now? There are plenty of reputable companies that cut slides for rds. Holster is somewhat user preference, I prefer AIWB but strong side IWB is cool too. There's a plethora of quality kydex benders out there(yes, kydex).
As far as training, be willing to travel a little bit but there are some good local instructors as well.

 

[Raven]

A couple quick thoughts on this and your next post. Doesn't a 'lit ball' front sight also cause you to get tunnel vision staring at it just like a dot? A good way to get past staring at or looking for the dot is to take a target and write out a rhyme or phrase on it and then follow along with your pistol on target while reading it out loud. Can't read the lines while focusing on the dot.

I say all this and believe in dots after absolutely hating them until I learned to shoot one and now will never go back. (My iron sight shooting has improved as well.)

I only said that about Trijicon as a "devil's advocate" alternative to the reflex sights, an alternative that wont catch on things or take batteries. I've had the Trijicon sights and dont like them either

 

[wildrider666]

Off the cuff:
1. Pisiol Optics are too heavy. I laff every time "weight" as a reason against pistol RDS. I see them under 1oz to under 2oz. Is it too heavy to lift/draw that? Slides (more often than not) have "cutouts" which allow lower RDS mouting and remove slide weight. Seems those tradeoffs should eliminate that weight burden. Mounting plates/adapters vary so would final total weight increase.
2. Adds bulk to your CC firearm. Yes it does, volume is volume but we need to look where its added. If the RDS is properly matched, it shouldn't be wider than the handgun. It will add to pistol hight but is that something we don't frequently encounter like changing carry guns from a G26 to a G19? There are a lot of CC'ers that swap calibers, double to single stack and back, models mfrs etcetera to match the clothing and environment they will be in.
3. Holsters don't seem to be a problem and Kydex is simple to modify. "Hooded" Retention holsters are a bit outside the CC realm.
4. "Shortcuts" in training. Yes, same was tossed out there when "handgun lasers" hit the street. Reality was, once distance, bright days and broken backgrounds played into it: you needed to "follow sights" to find the lazer Dot and that was diminishing returns as far as I was concerned, Co-witness was a must for lasers and equally important for RDS.
5. People will not invest the time and money for training with a CC handgun with DRS. That applies universally to a hell of a lot of new gun owners and fits Iron sighted handguns just as well. It doesn't detract for RDS any more than anything else that's neglected training.

We can talk about "other people" but what about you and I? Can we handle the little extra weight and volume? Would we like to be faster with initial sight picture and therefore first shot engagement of a threat? Same for follow up shots? Can we become proficient with a CC RDS?

I think the Pros in support of handgun RDS are undeniable. It's just a matter of personal choice and acceptance. "Plastic Pistols! They will never be main stream! Lol.

 

[Dan1612]

I opted to have my Holosun removed from my 43X MOS today. I found myself trying to focus on the red light too much, and in a defensive scenario that kind of tunnel vision could get me or a loved one killed deader than dead. I've got 30 years experience behind acquiring the front sight on the draw from cover and then rocking and rolling with hand/eye coordination, and the shiny red ball just got in the way

In my personal experience, it’s actually tunnel vision that makes it physically impossible to focus on anything but the threat in a defensive scenario.
While you can still get an accurate sight picture by aligning the irons peripherally, that’s not the way they’re meant to be used. I believe that’s where the value of the red dot comes in, since you’re NOT supposed to focus on the red dot.
However, I’ve seen people just not be able to get it, even after occlusion drills. So it’s all personal preference, everybody is different.
If it were my choice entirely, tritium irons at the very bottom of an RMR window. I’d rather have it all and not use it instead of need it and not have it. As far as what to focus on, when it matters, you don’t get much of a choice, your body does that for you. But like anything else, hey brother if it works for you, it’s all good even if it doesn’t work for me.

 

[FrankT]

gotta be tacticool

 

[Dan1612]

gotta be tacticool

Duh. Chicks dig it.

 

[Raven]

Off the cuff:
1. Pisiol Optics are too heavy. I laff every time "weight" as a reason against pistol RDS. I see them under 1oz to under 2oz. Is it too heavy to lift/draw that? Slides (more often than not) have "cutouts" which allow lower RDS mouting and remove slide weight. Seems those tradeoffs should eliminate that weight burden. Mounting plates/adapters vary so would final total weight increase.
2. Adds bulk to your CC firearm. Yes it does, volume is volume but we need to look where its added. If the RDS is properly matched, it shouldn't be wider than the handgun. It will add to pistol hight but is that something we don't frequently encounter like changing carry guns from a G26 to a G19? There are a lot of CC'ers that swap calibers, double to single stack and back, models mfrs etcetera to match the clothing and environment they will be in.
3. Holsters don't seem to be a problem and Kydex is simple to modify. "Hooded" Retention holsters are a bit outside the CC realm.
4. "Shortcuts" in training. Yes, same was tossed out there when "handgun lasers" hit the street. Reality was, once distance, bright days and broken backgrounds played into it: you needed to "follow sights" to find the lazer Dot and that was diminishing returns as far as I was concerned, Co-witness was a must for lasers and equally important for RDS.
5. People will not invest the time and money for training with a CC handgun with DRS. That applies universally to a hell of a lot of new gun owners and fits Iron sighted handguns just as well. It doesn't detract for RDS any more than anything else that's neglected training.

We can talk about "other people" but what about you and I? Can we handle the little extra weight and volume? Would we like to be faster with initial sight picture and therefore first shot engagement of a threat? Same for follow up shots? Can we become proficiently with a CC RDS?

I think the Pros in support of handgun RDS are undeniable. It's just a matter of personal choice and acceptance. "Plastic Pistols! They will never be main stream! Lol.

I know that with more weight I usually have faster and more accurate follow up shots, just from reduced felt recoil and reduced muzzle flip, whether that was with a steel frame double stack pistol or with a polymer frame using a light/laser combo and heavier guide rod. Weight was a big thing that appealed to me with the 43X MOS using 15 round Shield mags versus my Walther clone single stack. I like feeling like I'm actually holding something besides plastic

 

[Duckyou]

Duh. Chicks dig it.

sold me - ordered a few rmrs.

 

[Longtooth]

Anyone who brings their own ammo is welcome to come spend an hour with me on the range to try mine and my holsters, and get some pointers. I’ve trained close to 200 individuals on them.

What range? I would like to practice.

 

[FrommerStop]

What range? I would like to practice.

ERGC most likely

 

[donr101395]

As a concealed carry instructor for 15 years my advice is to leave the optics off of a CC pistol and learn combat pistol shooting tactics. All that optic does is make your pistol heavier to carry and fail when you need it most. Also makes it harder to conceal and holsters harder to find. For everyday carry the old K.I.S.S. adage is the best advice. I am sure there will be some tacti-cool operator with 511 pants and fingerless gloves along in a minute to explain why I am wrong.

Quality optics and back up iron sights are a thing. The amount of material removed from the slide to mount the optic weighs roughly the same amount as the optic. Back up iron sights are there if it fails. Would you suggest leaving optics of or carbines as well? The optic fits into what is otherwise dead space on your body and isn’t obtrusive if you’re using an optic designed for a pistol aka a miniaturized optic.
Your reasoning just doesn’t hold any water as someone who has taught self defense and concealed carry classes since 2000 and used and taught optics pistol classes since 2010.



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[Longtooth]

ERGC, $15 for a guest pass. I’m free most evenings after 3:30 and weekends.

Ill PM you.

 

[Longtooth]

ERGC most likely

I used to be a member there. Stopped going in 2019.

 

[Pudge]

Maintain your focus on the target the entire time: Don’t treat the dot like a front sight.

I want to highlight this quoted part above from Deadly Threat Defense. If you want to think about it in terms of iron sights, the target is your 'front' sight and the dot is your 'rear' sight. We want the front to be crisp and clear, which in this instance is the target. Thinking this way may help

 

[Dojostud]

I’ve been carrying a dot for now for about 2 years. There’s so many advantages of a dot when it comes to shooting it’s insane. The same very reason we see leo and mil units allow dots and see tons of competition shooters with dots.

Get vetted optics, Holosun, Luepold, Trijicon and Aimpoint seem to be the top runners.

There’s a learning curve, it’s not gonna be easy. But with more repetitions you do of draws and presentations, it becomes second nature. Then if you ever go back to irons, you’ll apply everything you learned with a dot, to your irons and be that much more proficient.


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[JWlineman]

If the OP is up to it, reads thru the valid comments and is debating on what equipment to get, I'll join Deadly at ERGC and you can try out the M&P side of the rds pistols. (Cause glocks are...well...)
*just ordered a Holosun 508t v2 from Big Tex that needs to be zeroed anyway and I'll have a 507c x2 for sale shortly thereafter *hint, hint*

 

[Fng1911]

A couple quick thoughts on this and your next post. Doesn't a 'lit ball' front sight also cause you to get tunnel vision staring at it just like a dot? A good way to get past staring at or looking for the dot is to take a target and write out a rhyme or phrase on it and then follow along with your pistol on target while reading it out loud. Can't read the lines while focusing on the dot.

I say all this and believe in dots after absolutely hating them until I learned to shoot one and now will never go back. (My iron sight shooting has improved as well.)

My iron shooting improved as well. Before shooting red dots, I wasn't able to shoot with both eyes open. After sitting with a dot on USPSA and IDPA for the past few years. I'm able to shoot irons with both eyes now. I'm not knocking on carry instructors, but I've seen some shoot competition and welp, they didn't finish in the top 50% or went home early . The people that are against red dots are the same people That walked uphill both ways in snow with no shoes to school. It's the new way of shooting and RED DOTS RULE!!

Good conversation

 

[FrankT]

The right answer is use what you shoot best, one is not better than the other

 

[Telum Pisces]

Love my Hellcat with the Shield sight. I carry and shoot it pretty darn good.

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