Learning about scopes

[wildrider666]

Mil Dots (MD). There are a lot of MDs mounted on civ rifles, few riflemen are truely proficient with them. If the owner does not know what a Milliradian is or the size of the mil dots on his/her recticle they need to do some homework. The best source for understanding your MD scope is the MFG User Manual. Not all MD are created equal. Mil Spec? The Army and Marine Corps use different size MDs, hence their training and computations are different. The Link will give you a pretty good breakdown of these two MD types and how MD works. If your not willing to do the work your just wasting your money on tacti-cool. MD has the potential to make you a more accurate Rifleman, it will not make your rifle more accurate, magnafication aside.


http://www.boomershoot.org/general/TruthMilDots.htm

 

[barebones1]

How about some day soon one of you knowledgeable guys doing a class on scopes? I mean teaching the basics, sighting in, various kinds of scopes, adjustments for elevation and windage. Stuff like that. I know that subject isn't something that can be taught in a couple of hours and it takes years to be a sniper but just the general stuff, considerations and how to use one properly would be great.

I for one don't know nothing more than what end to look through. I see discussions on here about all other aspects of shooting but not much about this. I would rather someone with training start me off on the right track.

Hear good things about the long range class at K&M. Anyone have 1st hand experience, please chime in.

Sent from my SCH-I545 using Tapatalk

 

[Bowhntr6pt]

Probably the best source of information can be found here for MILS and MOA...

http://thescopesmith.com/A Shooters Guide to MILS and MOA USO.pdf

Edit- I have the above PDF if anyone wants it via e-mail, if so, let me know Bob@Signal-0.com

 

[wildrider666]

Probably the best source of information can be found here for MILS and MOA...

http://thescopesmith.com/A Shooters Guide to MILS and MOA USO.pdf

I reviewed the doc. Good info. He references the dif between Army MD and USMC MD. Then says American Snipers use the USMC version. At Link on Post 21, please note table towards bottom which lists scopes/Mfg by Army or USMC MD. Use the wrong data and you may shoot in the ballpark but thats not really what we want. The USMC MD is widely noted as easier to use. Brand loyalty or price may influence you choice more then what type MD it contains. I consider First or Second focal plane issue equally important. IMHO

 

[Calculated steps]

I went to the link. Wow I've got homework to do.

 

[Pompnewbie]

Sean take a look at this guys youtube channel.. he covers just about everything for LRPS
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCqymwlCbVwpMnSLrd-NAQJQ
It's the Sniper 101 section

 

[SAWMAN]

IMO the mildot/milrad systems are totally useless for most here's everyday purposes. That definitely includes mine. Unless you are super dedicated to making shots at the further distances there are tons of other choices. I would challenge most any (99.99%) of mildot/milrad users to effectively put hits on targets ACTUALLY using the formulas. Reason ---> too damned much to memorize. Military snipers do not take a quick shot. It is a calculated shot. They typically have hours if not days to do their calculations. The hunter can not afford this "luxury". Neither can the guy at the bench ringing steel at an UNKNOWN distance. Also,I have heard that the average distance that a shot is taken by a CIVILIAN sniper is 80yds.

A scope with a simple duplex will be effective for most hunting and target apps. This,especially with a flat(er) shooting gun. Nowadays unless you are shooting a 30-30Win,22LR,or possibly a 300BLK with the heavier,subsonic loads,a reticle with multiple tic marks/wind marks is not needed. NOW ....... they are kewl,and you level of kewlness could be somewhat elevated if you have one,but actually needed ..... ? ..... probably not.

There are tons of scopes out there nowadays that have simple tic marks under the horizontal. All you really need is two or three for the vast majority of applications. And this,coupled with a good ballistic program like Nikon's SPOT ON,will do 'bout anything within the reasonable ranges. For the purpose of this conversation,MY definition of long range is anything >600yds. "FAR" is 300yds. How much shooting do you do out past that ??

Your time and money would be better allocated to a scope with great glass,and an adjustable AO or third turret focus. Couple or three simple tic marks down below the horizontal,matched with a good ballistic program (Strelok)and a "cheat sheet" taped to the butt of your weapon you can put hits on targets waaaaaay out yonder.

NOTE: The above is my opinion ONLY. I'm sure others may vary. --- SAWMAN

 

[Bowhntr6pt]

IMO the mildot/milrad systems are totally useless for most here's everyday purposes. That definitely includes mine. Unless you are super dedicated to making shots at the further distances there are tons of other choices. I would challenge most any (99.99%) of mildot/milrad users to effectively put hits on targets ACTUALLY using the formulas. Reason ---> too damned much to memorize. Military snipers do not take a quick shot. It is a calculated shot. They typically have hours if not days to do their calculations. The hunter can not afford this "luxury". Neither can the guy at the bench ringing steel at an UNKNOWN distance. Also,I have heard that the average distance that a shot is taken by a CIVILIAN sniper is 80yds.

A scope with a simple duplex will be effective for most hunting and target apps. This,especially with a flat(er) shooting gun. Nowadays unless you are shooting a 30-30Win,22LR,or possibly a 300BLK with the heavier,subsonic loads,a reticle with multiple tic marks/wind marks is not needed. NOW ....... they are kewl,and you level of kewlness could be somewhat elevated if you have one,but actually needed ..... ? ..... probably not.

There are tons of scopes out there nowadays that have simple tic marks under the horizontal. All you really need is two or three for the vast majority of applications. And this,coupled with a good ballistic program like Nikon's SPOT ON,will do 'bout anything within the reasonable ranges. For the purpose of this conversation,MY definition of long range is anything >600yds. "FAR" is 300yds. How much shooting do you do out past that ??

Your time and money would be better allocated to a scope with great glass,and an adjustable AO or third turret focus. Couple or three simple tic marks down below the horizontal,matched with a good ballistic program (Strelok)and a "cheat sheet" taped to the butt of your weapon you can put hits on targets waaaaaay out yonder.

NOTE: The above is my opinion ONLY. I'm sure others may vary. --- SAWMAN

I agree... even when setting up as a SWAT Sniper/Observer I use a LRF 99% of the time to build a range card... only once did I "do the math" for a range but it was more for confirmation than anything else. Their initial/primary purpose was range estimation.

At training we constantly work range problems to keep sharp... once you get to doing it, it becomes child's play. We will pick things off in the distance, measure them with the reticle, do the quick math, then use the LRF to see how close we are.

Doing range estimation exercises in the PR class I give is always a big hit... lots of people approach the task with apprehension but in short order are really liking the utility and ease of the process.

 

[SAWMAN]

One more thing ---> with the proper zero of your quality scope you can hold top of back of most any 18" target (deer chest,upright woodchuck,upright crow,the smaller elk,antelope,mans torso,etc.)and put a hit at the bottom of the 9 inches at ..... ?? ..... how far ??

Point Blank Range is something that can be used to your advantage IF your scope is properly zeroed. That could mean 2-3 inches high at some point(points) in the bullets trajectory. Remembering that your bullet has TWO zero's in it's flight. With your scope properly adjusted you can make both of them work in your favor. Even with something like the 308Win shooting the 168's.

NOW ----------> do you really need all that mildot/milrad shit or will you simply use kentucky windage and ........ send it ??? --- SAWMAN

 

[fishingjean]

Thank you mr. Saw an, I read a detailed writing someone posted earlier in this post an was more confused when I finished lol !!!!

 

[wildrider666]

As I mentioned in an earlier comment, the planned use of the rifle/scope will drive what features you need. Fixed magnafication (commonly refered to as "Power or X"), such as a 4 Power or 10 X scopes. Varaible magnification scopes come with a power range that you adjust to your shooting requirements between the minimum and maximum magnafication, such as 2X7, 3X9, 6.5 X 20. Magnafication will also control your "Field of View" or how wide of an area you can observe (normally at a distance of 100 yards). The scopes foward bell/lens size determins how much light refraction the scope transmits to your eye. The larger = more light if all lenses are of equal quality. The front bell must clear the barrel and rear iron sights. The Large bell may affect scope mounting postition for eye relief requiring taller mounts; this may trade off from your cheek well position. Scope mounts/bases must also ensure bolt handle clearance.

A few of the types of reticles
https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=different+scope+reticles

How to mount a rifle scope
https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=mountinga+rifle+scope

No tools bore sighting
https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=how+to+bore+sight+a+rifle+scope

 

[Signal25]

Hear good things about the long range class at K&M. Anyone have 1st hand experience, please chime in.

Sent from my SCH-I545 using Tapatalk

Ive been to bowhunters class twice. Its always fun and you pick something up. Im not trying to pimp him, but its affordable and close.
If anyone here goes, and Im able to make it, Id do it a 3rd 4th time. (And yes, I pay full price each time)

 

[fl57caveman]

thanks everyone for the tips...keep them coming

 

[Bowhntr6pt]

I'll add this... while I'm no world famous trainer and I don't have household name recognition, I do have some experience with scopes... the biggest issue I see in my classes is CHEAP SCOPES. I once had a buddy on a deer hunt have the ocular lens just fall out of his scope... no back up, so he was done for the trip.

I'm a blue-collar hard working guy who does not have money to waste so I fully understand and appreciate how hard it is to spend BIG MONEY on glass... but as with most things in life, when it comes to scopes, you really do get what you pay for with few exceptions.

The quality and construction of the lenses is an important feature of a scope(for serious work) as is the construction of the precision internals that adjust the erector tube assembly. As pointed out, Objective size effects light transmission BUT so does the quality of the glass. When I say serious work, I don't mean just security or LE work, it includes ANY shooting activity where the shooter is serious about what they are doing whether it be a big game hunt or an F-Class match... a cheap scope will cost you more than you may know.

I can't tell you how many times guys come to class and their "budget" scope takes a crap... failure to respond to corrective inputs and failure to return or hold zero are common. My biggest recommendation is for folks to be patient and save enough $$ to get a quality scope THE FIRST TIME so money is not wasted later down the road when a replacement becomes necessary.

I about die every time someone brings a cheap (sub $200) "tactical scope" to class they got from Cheaper Than Dirt or EBay because in short order their day gets ruined and I end up loaning them a scoped rifle so they can finish the class.

For a good video on lenses and how Chromatic Aberration (important for clear/sharp images), see this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GCISX9id86I

Another good video on scopes:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TRpBxLbxhAo