Long night for Baltimore

[Droshki]

Very.
Do all the statements corroborate each other?
Are there ANY discrepancies?
The 6th declined ... on what grounds.
Were they paid to stop the transport and let someone in to settle a score?
Is there anything in their record showing a pattern?
Are there any prior complaints against the officers involved?
Were the 2 detainees really separated?
Why don't you know the status of the other detainee?
If one detainee was injured to the point of being deceased, is the other detainee harmed at all?

Justice rushed is justice perverted.

Charging someone with a crime while the investigation counties is commonplace. Especially if they were the only ones at the murder scene, that weren't in handcuffs.

 

[Droshki]

Again, there is no avoiding this:

" Batts told The Associated Press on Thursday. "It's our responsibility to make sure people are safely transported, especially if their hands are behind their back."

 

[Fletch]

http://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2015/04/the-rough-ride-and-police-culture/391538/

Pretty good article on the history of rough rides. It also mentions a witness saying when arrested the police had a knee in his neck. A doctor from John Hopkins went on to state the spinal injury could have happened progressively. That a small fracture could weaken one as to not be able to withstand forces that a normal healthy neck could. Like maybe the excessive force of the knee in the neck caused a small fracture and while cuffed yet unsecured with a seatbelt he had no way to catch himself as his helpless body was tossed around the van and his unsupported and injured neck fractured to the 80% level the autopsy showed. You know kind of how they tell you to secure the head and neck of crash victims because the slightest wrong movement could kill or paralyses them for life.

If there is one thing that I've seen in these police take down videos I personally think is excessive it is the knees to the neck. Are they taught to do this? I would only ever apply force with my knee and body weight to one's neck if I was in a fight for my life. It's just common sense that it has the potential to seriously injury or kill someone.

 

[Loki]

Charging someone with a crime while the investigation counties is commonplace. Especially if they were the only ones at the murder scene, that weren't in handcuffs.

Wait - what? "Charging someone with a crime while the investigation counties is commonplace. Especially if they were the only ones at the murder scene, that weren't in handcuffs." So, bystanders should be arrested and charged with a crime until the case is solved.

Tell me you see the problem with that statement.

 

[maxfold]

Seems like the mayor and others should answer these questions and others ,and how about them looters and burners .we are teaching kids that this is ok behavior ,make a statement to be heard .quit codling the bad guys ,behavior is learned ! And five years of arrests arent enough , maxfold

 

[Droshki]

Wait - what? "Charging someone with a crime while the investigation counties is commonplace. Especially if they were the only ones at the murder scene, that weren't in handcuffs." So, bystanders should be arrested and charged with a crime until the case is solved.

Tell me you see the problem with that statement.

You are being obtuse. In this case specifically, there were no unhandcuffed innocent bystanders. We both know that.

 

[Fletch]

The Mayor and Police commissioner have screwed this up from both ends. A weak response to an obvious case of police brutality and then the apparent green light for rioters to do their thing. They should both be thrown out of office. Can the city council hold a vote to oust a Mayor for such incompetence or call for a public vote of confidence?

 

[Droshki]

Again, no matter what happened, the cops are responsible.

Even the police commissioner admitted that.


" Batts told The Associated Press on Thursday. "It's our responsibility to make sure people are safely transported, especially if their hands are behind their back."

 

[Famine]

Baltimore is pretty much a city in trouble, been that way since the late 60's maybe earlier but that's when I was first there. Got lost trying to get to Johns Hopkins one evening and a police cruiser pulled me over to find out what I was doing and thankfully escorted me out of the area I was in. Here is what Baltimore law enforcement deals with for a city of 600K+ people;



2012 Crime (Actual Data)*

Incidents

Aggravated Assault 4,651
Arson 242
Burglary 7,770
Forcible Rape 315
Larceny and Theft 17,397
Motor Vehicle Theft 3,982
Murder and Manslaughter 218
Robbery 3,605
Crime Rate (Total Incidents) 45,394
Property Crime 29,391
Violent Crime 8,789



2015 Crime (Projected Data)*

Incidents

Aggravated Assault 4,037
Arson 148
Burglary 8,062
Forcible Rape 327
Larceny and Theft 13,787
Motor Vehicle Theft 2,835
Murder and Manslaughter 184
Robbery 3,171
Crime Rate (Total Incidents) 40,730
Property Crime 24,727
Violent Crime 7,718

I expect this kind of frequency weighs heavily on the minds of the LEOs when they head out. Serious gang problems and gang sponsored crime - so that for a background...

Subject is stopped, runs, captured and dies in transport: LEO fail - it should never have happened - period. He should have been restrained and otherwise properly secured for safe transport to the station. With the crime rate above - they have lots of success in doing just that. Long time felon or not - he was not a subject in a capital crime.

Two weeks with no response from the police in terms of the investigation. Again Police fail - knowing that the funeral would be a significant event in the city - with those looking for an excuse to riot being handed one on a silver platter - I mean really how long does it take to issue a preliminary report from the ME and police investigation? Would an arrest avoided the rioting - I suspect not - would arrests today end it - nope - the ones involved are having a grand old time - look at the smiles on their faces - the ones throwing rocks - looting and burning.

Getting additional resources for the local PD sooner - well the Mayor was afraid excessive force would result in more violence - the Black Police Chief disagreed. 80 Sq miles of city was beyond his departments ability to control so everyone loses...those folks who property was stolen or destroyed, the shops that were burned and looted...they may never come back and serve the local community - hurting who - the same people in many cases that burned and stole - and will be the first to complain when this is over and done with.

Assaulting Officers, Rioting, Looting, Destruction of Property - I am with the Baltimore Chief of Police - Arrest and try everyone identified and give them their day in court. Any of this is wrong - period - no excuses. Talk about a failure of the justice system - how is anyone with his rap sheet on the street - he is a habitual criminal and should have still been behind bars - and none of this would have happened. Well maybe not, I suspect Baltimore and perhaps a few other cities are looking for a reason to behave this way after Mo and SC. Detroit comes to mind among others. If the gangs follow thru with making hits on LEOs - find and arrest every member under the RICO Act - and the guilty parties for murder 1.

 

[Loki]

You are being obtuse. In this case specifically, there were no unhandcuffed innocent bystanders. We both know that.

No sir - I took your statement at its core and you cast a wide net out there.
You have to ask questions and find the facts - Innocent until proven guilty remember?
You cannot just charge someone with a felony and then say "Whoops my bad" if through investigation you find out that said person was innocent.

Evidence makes or breaks your case, whether you agree or disagree with it.

For pity sake .. Gray could have been hurt before being arrested, and the actions after that could have caused his death.
There are too many unknowns at this point to rush judgement. If you were one of the officers would you want to rush this, or make sure every stone was turned in the investigation?

 

[Droshki]

And since this got no takers the first time around, before I head back in from lunch I'll repost it:

Here, I'll show you how stupid this argument is. If a baltimore cop was locked in a closed room with six Crips members for thirty minutes, and we opened the door and the cops neck was broken, how many of you would be arguing that he somehow broke his own neck, or that we needed more then 2 weeks to investigate what happened?


But I think I'll leave it there. I at least respect Overtime for being honest, and not making up crazy unsubstantiated what-if stories.

 

[Rebuilt]

What if he pleads the fifth and it turns out it wasn't him. The cop or cops that roughed him up need to pay the piper. Not the innocent property owners or the cops that are trying to put down the unrest.

 

[Droshki]

You cannot just charge someone with a felony and then say "Whoops my bad" if through investigation you find out that said person was innocent.

Seriously? It happens every day, man. Else the prosecters would have a 100% conviction rate! You don't wait until you're 100% certain-that's what we have trials for.

 

[Loki]

And since this got no takers the first time around, before I head back in from lunch I'll repost it:

Here, I'll show you how stupid this argument is. If a baltimore cop was locked in a closed room with six Crips members for thirty minutes, and we opened the door and the cops neck was broken, how many of you would be arguing that he somehow broke his own neck, or that we needed more then 2 weeks to investigate what happened?


But I think I'll leave it there. I at least respect Overtime for being honest, and not making up crazy unsubstantiated what-if stories.

I'd want all the facts before I made judgement. You didn't answer my question, so I'll use your "crazy unsubstantiated what if story" to make a point - What if you were one of the crips in the room, but did nothing. Wouldn't you want an investigation done?
Or are you advocating rioting and looting against the crips and their communities as a response? Since we need to rush judgement and all.

 

[FrankT]

Some here are more anti cops than the criminals I am sensing....

 

[Droshki]

I'd want all the facts before I made judgement. You didn't answer my question, so I'll use your "crazy unsubstantiated what if story" to make a point - What if you were one of the crips in the room, but did nothing. Wouldn't you want an investigation done?
Or are you advocating rioting and looting against the crips and their communities as a response? Since we need to rush judgement and all.

Good question. Would you be willing to let all six Crips walk free for months while you completed said investigation?

Sorry, got to get back into work, PM me if you want!

 

[Fletch]

I've only been to Baltimore once but had a great experience. Went to visit my folks who were in DC at the time and on a whim we decided to drive up to the Preakness and try to by tickets from a scalper. Got tickets that were 3 rows off the rail just past the last turn on the home stretch for 50 bucks a piece. Try that at the Kentucky Derby! Watched Charismatic make a huge move on the turn and pull away from the pack and it was an awesome sight. My first and only horse race was the Preakness and I got to watch a triple crown contender take the second leg a mere 20 ft from me.

We then went to the harbor area which I thought was cool and had some drinks at an Irish Bar and then ate some great crab cakes at a place on the water. Not a huge baseball fan but have always wanted to watch a game at Camden Yards as well. I would defiantly go back to another Preakness. There is some serious partying that goes on in the infield. Most guys have their binoculars focused there and not on the horses!

 

[Stagman]

Droshki has to be CCHGN's alter, way too many similarities for it to NOT be. Maybe the GCGF isn't for you being 99% of the members are conservative, you need to find a liberal forum for all of your anti-conservative point of views. It just seems the only the reason you are on here is to be a LIBERAL TROLL.

 

[Overtime]

What if we put the cop in a closed room with 6 3rd graders and he came out with a broken neck? Arrest the 3rd graders on sight? Thats about as close of a comparison as you just made comparing sworn public servants to violent gangbangers.

 

[Fletch]

Droshki has to be CCHGN's alter, way too many similarities for it to NOT be. Maybe the GCGF isn't for you being 99% of the members are conservative, you need to find a liberal forum for all of your anti-conservative point of views. It just seems the only the reason you are on here is to be a LIBERAL TROLL.

Why does everything have to be framed in liberal vs conservative terms? These days it seems like if one is politically engaged they are expected to pick their party and then let that party tell them what they believe. I enjoy getting different points of view even if I don't agree with them. What fun is a bunch who agree on everything and parrot each others viewpoints? I guess I just don't have a political identity because "liberals" always call me conservative and conservatives sometimes call me "liberal". The tie that binds members here is the enjoyment of shooting and the lawful use of firearms is it not?