Glock Overreach?

[donr101395]

and from the comments there:

Why would GLOCK need to see the Form 4473s? It is the qualifying ID that is relevant. A record of the buyer’s name and qualifying membership type should be sufficient.

Unless you can match a 4473 with a copy of the qualifying ID it means nothing.
It's like saying because my checkbook register says I have $500,000 dollars I must have it. What my register says doesn't mean anything unless I'm able to verify it with the official record at the bank. The copy of the ID is the check register and the 4473 is the official bank record. If they both match we're good to go, if not we have a problem.

 

[Droshki]

Dealer McDealer sold 48 blue label guns. He's got a record with 48 qualifying IDs.

Why's it gotta go any further?

Really i think this is sufficient. We're not taking nuclear warheads.

 

[MAXman]

Again I'll say, I don't give a rats ass who sees my info. Between the marine corps, the documents and forms they lost and were allowed stolen, the cwp, lowes wanting my phone number and zip code, and the security licenses, anyone who wants to know anything about me just has to do a google search or date a general.

The excerpt about dealers not talking down other products, obviously doesn't extend to thier armourers. It seems they all love to call quality, proven designs garbage because of grip angle or price or age.
And I know glock has teams of people scour forums. Honestly everytime I see comments where people talk trash about a new sig/smith/beretta/hk, I usually assume it's a glock rep pretending to be a consumer. Glock is the modern master of firearms marketing. They've managed to sell one of the cheapest and easiest to produce firearms as being perfect, touting cost saving measures and weakness as selling points. I wouldn't put it past them to have dudes run around trashing other products and making wild claims(one thread, maybe he high road, had someone claim the first generation styer m's would fire if the slide was lifted up). I'm just surprised they'd bother with this forum.



Like I said man, I'm not a buisness man. If you do t want to run glock the wrong way, then do what you have to.

 

[donr101395]

Really i think this is sufficient. We're not taking nuclear warheads.

I would as well, but it's their discount program and their dealer program so they get to set the rules for it.
I'm just explaining it from their side because I like to play devil's advocate.


Personally I don't care if they see my info. Target, Home Depot, AMEX, Visa, MC have all compromised my info to people far more nefarious than some Glock auditor. I've had to do DNA verification in 3 foreign countries so if a foreign government has my DNA I ain't worried about a bookworm from Smyrna GA. LOL

Should dealers be telling those customers buying blue label guns that they will share the personal info with a Glock auditor if requested by Glock? Sure, but that is on the dealer, not Glock.

 

[SAWMAN]

I feel that Glock has been able to take the industry by storm because of the weapons and because of the public. NOT because of Glocks marketing strategies. The public is not(generally speaking)stoooopid. If an item is good quality,at a fair price,it will sell.

I remember waaaaay back when Glock was just getting started,you hardly ever saw an advertisement for the weapon (Glock 17). Hardly anyone in the shooting community knew anything about them. It was like ...."huh,what's a Glock".

Unfortunately,like other companies(Nosler and Hornady comes to mind)the old men have gone. Now it's the bean counters and college "boys" running the show. The "hey doodes" and "zombie hunters". IMO .... if the product has gone downhill it's BECAUSE of the marketing. --- SAWMAN

 

[MAXman]

Marketing isn't just commercials.
They marketed to police. They did so with an awesome buy back program and cheap prices for new units. Trust me, people care what the cops carry. I hear all the time(maybe not on this forum, maybe not amongst seasoned shooters) I got such and such, it's what police use. Weapons, cars, whatever. Further, I can't tell you the amount of times I've swing into a shop just to look around and have the counter man start selling a glock. It was especially true when I was younger. If I had a nickel for every time someone tried to sell me a .40 glock is have enough to buy model 22. Some people call it sales, but to me a pitch is marketing. Tryig to convince you to spend your money on something. I'm not even going to start on Hollywood, And don't say it's because it's the most popular handgun so that's why it's in movies. Glock is a household word that simply stands for "black pistol". Just like ak47 ment "rifle with magazine" through the turn of the century. And I have yet to meet a glock armourer who doesn't go into all the features that make it a superior weapon, like "recoil absorbing" frame flex and the "perfect" design that uses fewer parts(so I guess the makarov pm is more prefect than perfect?). There's plenty of marketing going on, even if the ads are scarce.

Don't get me wrong.
They're solid guns with excellent reliability and are fairly easy to shoot. They're cheaper than many of the competition and they have a amazing reputation and following from those who actually shoot them. There's a whole lot of bad press that's honestly undeserved, the forst time I fired one I was expecting a large, wide pistol with a dao trigger that would stovepipe and possibly explode. Actually, a 17/19 is the best fitting double stack 9 I've handled and if anything the trigger is to light for my tastes. The extreme likleyhood of it going nuclear in a gun fight is actual appealing, I figure after the other guy sees me aim at his chest and then a claymore goes off in my hands, his mood for a fight will drain pretty quick.

 

[MAXman]

Just to clarify, I think saw man is talking about something that transpired before my time. I have no idea what the shooting world was like up until the mid 2000's. So whatever glock did in the 80's and 90's, he's gonna know a lot more about it than I do.
However, I think we will have to agree to disagree on one point: I feel the public is very much stoopid, often to the point of it being dangerous to their health.

 

[Droshki]

However, I think we will have to agree to disagree on one point: I feel the public is very much stoopid, often to the point of it being dangerous to their health.

Agree 100%. Very much stupid. Dangerously so. Look at all the warnings we have to put on everything.

 

[donr101395]

Agree 100%. Very much stupid. Dangerously so. Look at all the warnings we have to put on everything.

I've been saying that for years. Remove all warning labels and things will sort themselves out in a couple of generations. If you need a label to tell you that a curling iron is for external use only; removing that label can only improve the gene pool.

 

[Droshki]

I've been saying that for years. Remove all warning labels and things will sort themselves out in a couple of generations. If you need a label to tell you that a curling iron is for external use only; removing that label can only improve the gene pool.

Yup! It'll be mayham for a little bit, but we should work through them rather quickly.

 

[JohnAL]

Yup! It'll be mayham for a little bit, but we should work through them rather quickly.

That might save the world for a few more generations.

 

[MAXman]

Actually, I've used warning labels as party ideas for years

 

[SAWMAN]

I first got involved with Glocks back in '81 or '82. I was the armorer/range master at a NAS and the Glock wanted to be the next 1911. A little before then I was involved to a small degree with the "next sidearm for the military" thing. Please don't get me wrong,I was not in the decision making "loop",however I was privy to some data that most were not. I have assembled Glocks from parts bens filled with parts from 50 different Glocks. Just reach in,pick a part,build up the gun,go shoot it. No fitting,nothing to adjust. They all simply shot and shot.

I did not like the look and feel of the Glock,however after 20hrs or so of classes/seminars with the Glock reps I learned to respect and admire the pistol. That's it. It was not until many years later that I sold almost all my 1911's and bought Glocks. Nowadays I have even more admiration for the Glocks. I have been up "past my Glock" in the black slime mud in the Escambia River swamps. When I get home I stand at my deep sink in my garage and disassemble my Glock 20. It goes in the sink(ALL of it)and a little dish soap added. I gently swirl all this around,then rinse with fresh water. I blow off all the parts with 40psi of compressed air driven WD-40. Followed by 80psi of dry air. Reassemble,lube as specified,reload,and make ready for the next trip.

Weather people like or dislike Glocks is up to them. Same as weather or not I like or dislike a Wilson Combat,Les Baer,Ed Brown,STI,etc.etc. To me,I feel that the mentioned high end pistols are not worth the money ..... a Glock IS worth the asking price.

This gentlemen,is one big thing that Glock has going for them. This is why they sell,and sell,and sell, ............. --- SAWMAN

 

[Ross7]

More on the legality of the issue here...

While Trop Gun refused the Glock representative access to the 4473s based on their position of protecting their customer’s privacy, there appears to be a more pertinent reason to deny the Glock representative access. It’s a violation of the Pennsylvania Crimes Code for a Pennsylvania FFL to disclose information provided by the transferee in relation to the purchase of a firearm.

http://blog.princelaw.com/

 

[MAXman]

Ross, how interesting.

Saw man, that's also interesting. Have you ever detailed some of that experience on this forum, I'd love to hear about it.
Being a smith and Wesson fan boy i really wish the military had gone with the 459 series. I understand the reasonig for the beretta was cost over the sig, which is interesting because price per pistol was more but the accessory package was less. Imagine that, a world where a 92 costs more than a 226....
I really wish I could get over the "safe action" trigger design, I'd end up saving a whole lot of money.

 

[donr101395]

More on the legality of the issue here...



http://blog.princelaw.com/

They are really reaching with that one because they didn't even quote the law correctly. The PA law actually says "public disclosure". Glock and Trops entered into a business relationship and the 4473s are a part of that business relationship they aren't asking for public disclosure which legally means that anyone can ask to see the forms. "Public" has a specific legal meaning.

 

[donr101395]

Just to add to it, who thinks that those vehicle recall notices you get for your car in the mail come from the dealership where you bought the car? Guess what, they don't and the dealership gives more info than a 4473 contains to the car manufacturer.

 

[SAWMAN]

I look at it like this --> I CARE who is data mining(thanks Dave)on me. If some damn shoe store is compiling info on me because I just bought a pair of Air Jordan (yeah,right)from them .... hell yeah,I care. They don't need to compile info. If they do,then why.

For me,the argument IS NOT who has what on me. My argument is WHY !! If,like some of you say,they already got everything on me possible,then why do they always seem to need more. To update their files that they sell to whomever ?? To TRACK what ?? Times,dates,Lat/Lon's,cash flow ?? People that I interact with on a day to day basis ?? Because I know Stanley ??

HOLY CRAP !!! I'm up a polluted tributary without proper means of propulsion. --- SAWMAN

 

[fishingjean]

Looked for you yesterday at jjs , I had them big bullets for you??? Denny

 

[Seanpcola]

I look at it like this --> I CARE who is data mining(thanks Dave)on me. If some damn shoe store is compiling info on me because I just bought a pair of Air Jordan (yeah,right)from them .... hell yeah,I care. They don't need to compile info. If they do,then why.

For me,the argument IS NOT who has what on me. My argument is WHY !! If,like some of you say,they already got everything on me possible,then why do they always seem to need more. To update their files that they sell to whomever ?? To TRACK what ?? Times,dates,Lat/Lon's,cash flow ?? People that I interact with on a day to day basis ?? Because I know Stanley ??

HOLY CRAP !!! I'm up a polluted tributary without proper means of propulsion. --- SAWMAN

For the most part it's "new style marketing". That stuff started with the grocery stores several decades ago when they pushed those ID cards to get discounts. I hate those things. However, this is the day of the computer and there's just no way of avoiding it but I guess you can try to minimize it. I've got one emergency credit card and that has zero balance right now. I very seldom buy anything on line and I'm even careful about my browsing. I'm not too worried (right now) about a database on me. It's not because I don't think it's insidious or that I don't believe dark forces compile that information for future use, it's just that I can't see me being much of a target in the greater scheme. If they want to know about me, they will. I'm open to suggestions on how to stop it but I can't see a way. I also try to be extremely careful on any social media, I don't post much info that isn't already out there and I've tried to kill as much tracking on my phone and tablet as possible but I assume that's futile.

The only real option would be to get the government back to doing what it's supposed to do, which is the bare minimum but good luck with that.

I'm pretty much done buying guns. If I do buy any more it's going to be through private sales. Not that I think that really matters and just posting who I did publicly is probably dumb too.