Stomping Toes and pulling Fingernails.

[M118LR]

So it's time to converse about Civilian use of the M16/M4.

Sometimes the TRUTH HURTS.

The best trained SOCOM Operators require piston driven AR's even if they regularly perform 3 round trigger bursts Professionally with Full Automatic firearms.

Yet DI AR's perform better at the local 100 yard range on paper targets.

So since a properly placed 30-30 performs better harvesting game animals at 150 yards, than the 5.56 can hope to perform! Just what does a Semi-Automatic 5.56 offer that a civilian can realistically accomplish??????

Toss those sticks and stones, but keep the Zombie World on the TV with the Game Controller.

And Yes, I've hunted Piggly Wiggly on moonless nights, so this ain't a prank!

 

[Ron]

So it's time to converse about Civilian use of the M16/M4.

Sometimes the TRUTH HURTS.

The best trained SOCOM Operators require piston driven AR's even if they regularly perform 3 round trigger bursts Professionally with Full Automatic firearms.

Yet DI AR's perform better at the local 100 yard range on paper targets.

So since a properly placed 30-30 performs better harvesting game animals at 150 yards, than the 5.56 can hope to perform! Just what does a Semi-Automatic 5.56 offer that a civilian can realistically accomplish??????

Toss those sticks and stones, but keep the Zombie World on the TV with the Game Controller.

And Yes, I've hunted Piggly Wiggly on moonless nights, so this ain't a prank!

Well for one, cheap plinking / target practice! Two, long range target practice with steel plates at 300 yards. I would shoot further but that is as far as the range goes! Try that with a 30-30!

 

[M118LR]

Well for one, cheap plinking / target practice! Two, long range target practice with steel plates at 300 yards. I would shoot further but that is as far as the range goes! Try that with a 30-30!

So the 5.56 AR is a Target Rifle. Not a bad one at that, but isn't it better (more accurate) as a DI than a 750 RPM Piston Driven Full Automatic?

 

[Duckyou]

I’ve dropped a couple of huge mule deer with a 5.56 single round.

 

[Crabbyguy]

I’ve dropped a couple of huge mule deer with a 5.56 single round.

64 grain bonded soft point out of a 18 inch 1-8 twist at 108 yd harvested me a 138lbs deer. He didn’t go 20.

 

[M118LR]

At or over 150 Yards?

 

[Crabbyguy]

At or over 150 Yards?

150 yards in northwest Florida? Never had the need to push that far around here. Are we talking 5.56mm for just game or 5.56mm m16/m4 variant any purpose?

 

[Duckyou]

At or over 150 Yards?

One over. One right at 100.

Both shot at the base of the skull/neck.

Both dropped right there. Not a single step.

55 grain hollow point.


FYI - mule deer are not in Florida...

 

[Ron]

With the smaller caliber bullet compared to the 30-30 it could also be used as a varmint rifle if need be. The steel target shot in the picture posted in post #2 above was shot with my DPMS with a 24" stainless bull barrel at 300 yards using a Weaver T-36 competition bench rest rifle scope with 55 gr. flat base hollow points. Was not even a challenge. I just recently sold it to a forum member on here last month. Had to thin out my collection or buy another safe.

 

[M118LR]

150 yards in northwest Florida? Never had the need to push that far around here. Are we talking 5.56mm for just game or 5.56mm m16/m4 variant any purpose?

I'm looking for any purpose for a M16/M4 5.56 variant that isn't better served with another rifle/cartridge combo.

Not sure I'm familiar with what state allows Mule deer hunting with 5.56 Caliber?

 

[Rebel_Rider1969]

I could have swore we figured out the x39 was the be all, end all.

 

[Crabbyguy]

I'm looking for any purpose for a M16/M4 5.56 variant that isn't better served with another rifle/cartridge combo.

Not sure I'm familiar with what state allows Mule deer hunting with 5.56 Caliber?

Well first I’d say that not every rifle I own has a specific purpose except that I want to own it and my wants are all that matter to me.
Second; I’d say my wife at 5’1” can shoot a 30-30 just fine, but the 5.56 is much better suited for her and her size. She is far more effective with it. And to her she has one for the 2 legged vermin. So to her it is exactly the rifle/caliber combo that she wants and is proficient with.
Third; I never said mule deer to begin with. White tail is what I shoot. I have no clue what state allows mule deer hunting with a 5.56 caliber. It is however completely legal to hunt in the state of Florida with a .223 caliber rifle when shooting white tail. Like Duckyou said with the proper shoot placement and knowing the limitations for wind/distance the .233/5.56 is completely adequate for harvesting game here.

 

[M118LR]

Well first I’d say that not every rifle I own has a specific purpose except that I want to own it and my wants are all that matter to me.
Second; I’d say my wife at 5’1” can shoot a 30-30 just fine, but the 5.56 is much better suited for her and her size. She is far more effective with it. And to her she has one for the 2 legged vermin. So to her it is exactly the rifle/caliber combo that she wants and is proficient with.
Third; I never said mule deer to begin with. White tail is what I shoot. I have no clue what state allows mule deer hunting with a 5.56 caliber. It is however completely legal to hunt in the state of Florida with a .223 caliber rifle when shooting white tail. Like Duckyou said with the proper shoot placement and knowing the limitations for wind/distance the .233/5.56 is completely adequate for harvesting game here.

Mule Deer revisit post#8.

Attempting to determine what is the proper range limitations with a properly placed shot.

Yes I have also used a 5.56 AR with an NVS on hogs legally in Florida.

About those two legged vermin, I asked that you kept the Video responses on your controller attached to the TV.

So since the 30-30 that your wife can shoot just fine is a far more efficient Game Harvester than the 5.56 AR, what purpose can we use to convince folks in other states so that they may also accept the 5.56 AR?

 

[Crabbyguy]

Mule Deer revisit post#8.

Attempting to determine what is the proper range limitations with a properly placed shot.

Yes I have also used a 5.56 AR with an NVS on hogs legally in Florida.

About those two legged vermin, I asked that you kept the Video responses on your controller attached to the TV.

So since the 30-30 that your wife can shoot just fine is a far more efficient Game Harvester than the 5.56 AR, what purpose can we use to convince folks in other states so that they may also accept the 5.56 AR?

Video responses on my controller attached to the tv huh? That’s funny 2 legged vermin enter folks homes on a daily basis in this country. Please don’t try to insult me by saying I am talking about video games. That’s the standard fudd/ boomer response. My wife doesn’t hunt game, never said she does. Saying she can shoot a 30-30 just fine doesn’t mean she is comfortable defending the home with a 30-30 lever as she would be with a 6 1/2 lbs AR with far more rounds.
Im not sure why we have to convince other states to accept a AR when it’s the most widely use and owned rifle in the US and has been already stated to be a common usage rifle by the Supreme Court.
And I’m not sure why this keeps going back to harvesting game. Is that the way you think we should be going to try and convince anyone anything? Last I looked the 2A wasn’t about hunting, nor should we in the 2A community keep trying to use hunting as an excuse to have certain firearms. JMHO

 

[M118LR]

Video responses on my controller attached to the tv huh? That’s funny 2 legged vermin enter folks homes on a daily basis in this country. Please don’t try to insult me by saying I am talking about video games. That’s the standard fudd/ boomer response. My wife doesn’t hunt game, never said she does. Saying she can shoot a 30-30 just fine doesn’t mean she is comfortable defending the home with a 30-30 lever as she would be with a 6 1/2 lbs AR with far more rounds.
Im not sure why we have to convince other states to accept a AR when it’s the most widely use and owned rifle in the US and has been already stated to be a common usage rifle by the Supreme Court.
And I’m not sure why this keeps going back to harvesting game. Is that the way you think we should be going to try and convince anyone anything? Last I looked the 2A wasn’t about hunting, nor should we in the 2A community keep trying to use hunting as an excuse to have certain firearms. JMHO

Saying that she can isn't the same as she has. Pull the ear muffs and let her bang away inside a closed building with a full powered 5.56 AR and the standard fudd answer won't be considered an insult. Perhaps you shall find reference to more Home invasions being thwarted with simple 38 revolvers or shotguns than all the thwarted Home invasions resolved with AR's? A 14 inch full-auto 5.56 in CQB utilized by folks trained daily is a far cry from 16+ inches of semi-auto in the hands of someone that has never fired the weapon within closed close quarters. JMHO.
Thus the video game reference. YMMV.

Now as a Target Rifle the 5.56 AR has proven it's worth, but hunting rifles are far more accepted. So I'm asking for the acceptable range and game that an AR 5.56 can be classified as a hunting rifle. If you haven't noticed California has already made steady inroads into the 2A abilities of the AR. JMO.

 

[Duckyou]

Mule Deer revisit post#8.

Attempting to determine what is the proper range limitations with a properly placed shot.

Yes I have also used a 5.56 AR with an NVS on hogs legally in Florida.

About those two legged vermin, I asked that you kept the Video responses on your controller attached to the TV.

So since the 30-30 that your wife can shoot just fine is a far more efficient Game Harvester than the 5.56 AR, what purpose can we use to convince folks in other states so that they may also accept the 5.56 AR?

I have killed several deer with 30-30. I have never had a 30-30 that is accurate enough to do a neck shot. All the deer have been a front shoulder/heart shot. They all run, at least a few feet.

I would not do that shot with a 5.56.

On the mule deer - it was out west and my 270 scope got busted in transit. I was on native lands with native friends of my father.

Made some excellent mule deer Cajun sausage as I quartered it and took it back to Louisiana for processing.

I messed up the hides and learned that I do not know how to tan anything.

 

[Crabbyguy]

Saying that she can isn't the same as she has. Pull the ear muffs and let her bang away inside a closed building with a full powered 5.56 AR and the standard fudd answer won't be considered an insult. Perhaps you shall find reference to more Home invasions being thwarted with simple 38 revolvers or shotguns than all the thwarted Home invasions resolved with AR's? Now as a Target Rifle the 5.56 AR has proven it's worth, but hunting rifles are far more accepted. So I'm asking for the acceptable range and game that an AR 5.56 can be classified as a hunting rifle. If you haven't noticed California has already made steady inroads into the 2A abilities of the AR. JMO.

Yes I’m going to have my wife pull off earmuffs and have her “bang away” with 5.56 in a build to teach her what? That it sucks lol, as would any caliber. You go bang away with whatever caliber you like in a closed off building all you want. And it’s still American jack just because X number of home invasions are thwarted with a 38 or a shotgun doesn’t mean AR’s aren’t used and doesn’t mean my wife doesn’t get to pick what she chooses to defend herself or our family with. What it seems like is you just want to argue with someone about anything. Or that you just have to have the last word maybe idk. Either way I don’t think this is very productive. And I don’t live in Comifornia I live in Florida, so whatever inroads they have made to AR’s in that state don’t concern me. I mind mine. If that shit starts coming here then I’ll worry about it. Until then I guess the fine citizens of that state should fight back or hell move and let the state fall by the wayside. JMO

 

[M118LR]

I have killed several deer with 30-30. I have never had a 30-30 that is accurate enough to do a neck shot. All the deer have been a front shoulder/heart shot. They all run, at least a few feet.

I would not do that shot with a 5.56.

On the mule deer - it was out west and my 270 scope got busted in transit. I was on native lands with native friends of my father.

Made some excellent mule deer Cajun sausage as I quartered it and took it back to Louisiana for processing.

I messed up the hides and learned that I do not know how to tan anything.

My NVS is a Gen II, that means that the eye relief is less than a common day scope. The 5.56 generates far less recoil than most .30 Calibers, thus scope eye is reduced with the 5.56. Now I've gone to using 69 grain SMK's for hogs within 75 yards as their performance equals or betters most of the .224/5.56 hunting projectiles I've tried. But it has been my experience that at over 50 yards all of my 30 caliber cartridges anchor Piggly Wiggly with much more authority. So I'd feel confident at 50 yards with a 5.56 and even a large hog. So far the states that I've hunted with whitetails or other deer that commonly grow to over 200 lbs don't authorize .223/5.56, but I believe I'd feel perfectly equipped out to say 75 yards so armed. JMHO. The DPMS holds pretty fair groups with the 69 grain SMK.

 

[Duckyou]

My NVS is a Gen II, that means that the eye relief is less than a common day scope. The 5.56 generates far less recoil than most .30 Calibers, thus scope eye is reduced with the 5.56. Now I've gone to using 69 grain SMK's for hogs within 75 yards as their performance equals or betters most of the .224/5.56 hunting projectiles I've tried. But it has been my experience that at over 50 yards all of my 30 caliber cartridges anchor Piggly Wiggly with much more authority. So I'd feel confident at 50 yards with a 5.56 and even a large hog. So far the states that I've hunted with whitetails or other deer that commonly grow to over 200 lbs don't authorize .223/5.56, but I believe I'd feel perfectly equipped out to say 75 yards so armed. JMHO. The DPMS holds pretty fair groups with the 69 grain SMK.

I would have no problem taking a deer up to 300 yards with a 5.56. I would go to 700-800 yards with a 25-06 (building one for that right now).

It is shot placement and force.

I have not shot hogs - but I would think 5.56 could do the job with a head shot well past 75 yards.

 

[wildrider666]

Are we to think we need to justify the 5.56, sibling .223 and the AR? And be bracketed into a very limited hunting scenario so an antiquated 30-30 cartridge and common lever action can be debated to give the 30-30 a potential edge? Don't go outside the Lines so OP can maintain some ground to stand on? Well, I'm moving my fingers and toes and not playing by your rules.

Who says a semi-auto 5.56 is restricted to Hunting Bamby at any yardage. Let's not play slap and tickle with the hunting scenario.
How about multiple BGs doing a home invasions? ARs have been used successfully several times. How about the Church shooter that was challenged and chased off and persued by a guy that got his AR from his house. Neither of these type events would be better servered by a 30-30 which is most common in a lever action which generally is slower to cycle, less accurate, less initial capacity and slower to reload. There's a lot of odsurdites being tossed by OP. Sure, all types of guns are used to attempt to discourage home threats. BUT the bigger and practical reality is what do "we" and OP use? Is his choice a 38Spl with 5-7shots and that is all he keeps available? Does he argue for what he doesn't do himself? Poachers kill elephants with AKs, a 5.56/.223 AR capable of killing a deer if a person desires to do so.

The AR is for repelling boarders/stopping Threats and does so up close and well beyond 150 meters. OPs question is actually silly if you boil it down to where it really matters (and Bambi ain't it): Your going to do battle, you and your opponent can chose either a 30-30 or a 5.56 semi-auto AR: Pick and answer. NO: well if we're limited to 150 yards, blah, blah blah. So let's not play hypothetical and very limited scenario comparisons with two totally different calibers, desighned fordifferent puposes and use in different platforms.

There's a dozen better cartridges for deer hunting. Even with the newer 30-30 poly point tip ammo it's still a ballistically poor choice even at your limited 150 yards: hit the plate or POI within 1.5 MOA of POA? Yeah, there's the plinking thing, target thing, varmint thing and competition stuff but that's not the reason I own ARs. And yes, most of them are true gas piston and not piston hybrids or DI.

We could use a Poll: Do exclusively you use a 30-30 for deer hunting every year? Yes or No. If its still the greatest thing since buttered bread, there's no reason to use a "lesser cartridge". 30-30 Is hanging around only because a. The average joe who wants a lever action buys .22LR or 30-30, other catridges are either not as common or too powerful. b. There's a crap load of them out there since 1895. c. Optics that the common man could afford weren't available for at least the first 1/3 of its production. d. It's a mild 30 caliber cartridge. However, anybody that wants accuracy out of the box chooses anything but a lever gun, the Bands, forestock and fed tube are inherently adverse towards accuracy but people didnt care much because the cartridge was so limited anyway. Top ejection is a optics problem for some models, your not going to get close to bore axis. So if we compare the 30-30 lever action to other deer cartidges and actions the best that can be said is its adequate at closer ranges and the ever popular: its light and handy. You might want to check actual db level for the 30-30 and the 5.56 (which is slightly lower, indoors and without ear protection both will hurt.

How often do you see 30-30s in Camps or when you cross paths with other hunters? Last time I saw one was taking the Wife's Grandparents out for a day hunt in 95. One 30-30 Winchester with buckhorn sight and a sporterized 30-40 Krag. We had a nice easy day and it was their last hunt. Lol

Life isn't a Zombie movie but its not a TV western either. There's better tools for Bambi and BGs than the out classed and dated 30-30. YMMV, so I'll let you go back to your story plot. Lol