Israel / Iran conspiracy theory ??

[Carl]

ok, so maps FAR after the romans defeated israel and judea and renamed it syria palastina.

Yeah I didn't say that Jews were never there. I'm just sick of seeing these Christian evangelist types on tv claiming that Palestine never existed when obviously it did for a long time. Don't care about the sand people just hate the dishonesty.

 

[gunsrfun1]

Yeah I didn't say that Jews were never there. I'm just sick of seeing these Christian evangelist types on tv claiming that Palestine never existed when obviously it did for a long time. Don't care about the sand people just hate the dishonesty.

You are correct. "Palestine" in one form or another has existed since the days of the Old Testament (remember the Philistines?) The term has gone through many iterations too numerous (and at times confusing) to go into here. Most recently, before the State of Israel was founded in 1948, the same land that Israel sits on today was referred to during the British Mandate as "Palestine." In fact, today's Jerusalem Post newspaper (published in Israel) was previously called the Palestine Post before 1948. And the Jewish Agency, which was trying to get Jews to come settle in the area before 1948, used recruiting posters that said, "Come to Palestine." Truth be told, the Jews/Israelis are just as "Palestinian" as today's so-called Palestinians. But again, probably best left to another thread.

 

[Raven]

If you can't defend it then you don't own it. Land belongs to the nation of Israel. They fought and died for it, won and hold it fair and square

 

[DustyDog]

Comment I made elsewhere today:

"In my long-festering (forty years!) geo-political novel, the Zionists WANT another "holocaust" IN ISRAEL which they can utilize for propaganda purposes for the NEXT 100 years, since people are TIRING of hearing the SAME OLD LIES about the LAST ONE. REMEMBER: ZIONISTS don't care about JEWS, so... "

Keep in mind:

Rob Malley, "Iran sympathizer" (according to Ted Cruz) who negotiated with Iran for the Biden administration, (supposedly) "Jewish" (actually, a ZIONIST).

Wendy Sherman, head of the Iran nuclear deal negotiations in the Obama administration was ALSO (supposedly) "Jewish" (actually, a ZIONIST).

IF THESE WERE SUCH BAD DEALS, WHO SHOULD WE THANK?.

Someone else made a good point recently:

"Right-wing Christian nationalists, with their belief in a Jewish state existing alongside their conviction that Jews are going to Hell... "

That's right: Go to church on Sunday, and don't forget to donate to "Israel". Those bus tickets to Hell are going to be mighty expensive, after all, and the $300+ billion in foreign aid we've sent to Israel over the years was just a down-payment on them.

 

[dashaus]

“KARS FOR KIDS” is a typical example
Of how the world turns
The truth is the money goes to
“Oorah”
A charity where 100% money goes to Jewish children and families.
10 seconds or less on the web verifies this

Kars4Kids - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

multiple other web sites state the same thing
makes one think

 

[gunsrfun1]

“KARS FOR KIDS” is a typical example
Of how the world turns
The truth is the money goes to
“Oorah”
A charity where 100% money goes to Jewish children and families.
10 seconds or less on the web verifies this

Kars4Kids - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

multiple other web sites state the same thing
makes one think

 

[gunsrfun1]

Dashaus - You're absolutely correct about Kars for Kids and Oorah ... but so what? They are upfront about where the money goes. Instead of quoting Wikipedia (hardly what I would call an authoritative source on anything, since it is not vetted), why not just go to the source?

Oorah | Find out about our history, our people, and our mission

General information about Oorah Inc. Read about our mission, meet our people and view our historical timeline spanning nearly half a century

www.oorah.org

Seems to me they make it pretty clear that the money goes to Jewish kids and families. I don't see any subterfuge or false advertising there.

Dustydog - Trust me when I tell you that other than being Jewish myself, I have nothing in common with Wendy Sherman or anyone else who pushed the idiotic Iran nuclear deal. But remember who pushed it the most and got it over the finish line: Barack Obama. Last I heard, he is not Jewish.

And remember who has done absolutely nothing against Iran after numerous attacks on our troops: Joe Biden. Also not Jewish, if I am correct.

And now remember who IS pushing back against Iran and taking the fight to them: Israel. About 80% Jewish by population.

Just something for the two of you to think about.

לְהִתְרָאוֹת

 

[Rebel_Rider1969]

 

[FrommerStop]

These two cultures have been fighting each other since before the Old Testament. They cannot co-exist because they each live to exterminate the other … there simply cannot ever be peace.
This idea of the establishment of a Palestinian state …. look at any old map and you’ll find the words “Palestine” on the map.
It’s Israel that are really considered the occupiers, if you study your history.
There simply isn’t a peaceful solution to this. It’s not a conspiracy, it’s the continuation of the conflict that’s been playing out for more than a millennium

''two cultures have been fighting each other since before the Old Testament.'' No, that is not true. Arabia other than for trading routes was a backward place and more like an arm pit relative to status. Many of the larger powers did conquer Israel at least once. It was not till the time of Mohammad and his religious cult became a power that the Arabs came to the Holy land as more than traders.

For what became Israel
There was fighting there long before there was a Jewish identity. Many of the major cities on that end of the Mediterranean during something called the bronze age collapse was caused by unknown groups collectively called the sea peoples. There wear various regional power brokers like the Egyptians, Phoneticians, Ethiopians, Hittites, Alexander the great, Babylonians, Rome, etc and none of them Arab. Remember countries like Iraq, Syria, and Jordan were not originally Arab. Prior to the Muslim Arabs conquering, those were different peoples. In fact when the Muslim Arabs attacked, the peoples were christian and Jews, and maybe some pagans. ,

1177 BC: The Collapse of Civilizations and the Rise of Ancient Israel and Philistia​

https://bibleinterp.arizona.edu/articles/2015/01/cli398005

• Add new comment

The debates about the Conquest of Israel have been long and drawn out affairs, from the days of Albrecht Alt and Martin Noth to the present decade. All other things aside, recent discoveries allow us to investigate again the specific reason why the Israelites and Philistines were able to establish a foothold in the land of Canaan, namely the power vacuum that was created by the collapse of the Late Bronze Age kingdoms and empires in the ancient Near East in the decades after 1200 BC. The following material is adapted from my recent book 1177 BC: The Year Civilization Collapsed, published by Princeton University Press in 2014 (also available from Amazon.com), SEE ABOVE LINK

 

[dashaus]

Spent my time in 2nd/17th Air Cav 101st
Some 40 odd years ago
I believe starting in March of 1983
Elements of the 101st started being deployed to Sinai transitional period from jungle warfare to desert
Marine bombing in Beirut was the fall of that same year …
Everyone is entitled to their opinion

Cheers Mate

 

[FrommerStop]

OP - To answer your question straight up: The odds are zero.
Granted, politicians are a cynical bunch. But NOBODY in Israel would be cynical enough to sacrifice 1,200 dead Israelis and 200 hostages to have an "excuse" to bomb Iran. (They've had an excuse for years, just haven't done it yet, for reasons best left to another thread.)
Israel values every soldier and civilian to an extent that is hard to explain to outsiders. That's why you see these lopsided exchanges where Israel frees 1,000 terrorists to get one Israeli back. It's just not in their DNA to do something like you describe and sacrifice Israeli lives.
I just spent 3 1/2 weeks volunteering in Israel in a civilian capacity. They are totally focused on two things: 1) Getting the hostages back, and 2) Destroying Hamas. You may recall that before the Oct. 7 attack, Israelis were bickering like hell over a proposed change to their Supreme Court. There were demonstrations in the streets almost every day either for or against it. Some reservists were even threatening not to show up for duty. That ended on Oct. 7. Everyone is united and laser-focused on achieving the two goals I mentioned above.
As to how these attacks could have occurred: The Oct. 7 attack was a classical intelligence failure, one of many that have occurred throughout military history. (Remember Pearl Harbor?) I have literally read several accounts where some Israeli soldiers on the front lines of Gaza tried to warn their superiors that "something" was going on in Gaza. They actually saw the Hamas guys practicing various things and alerted their superiors. Apparently, those soldiers were ignored and, some say, belittled for bringing it up. So, I can guarantee you that after the war is over, there will be a HUGE investigation in Israel, and heads will roll, possibly including some that are now conducting the war.
But to reiterate my answer to your original question: The odds are zero.
PS - Two street photos attached from my recent trip to Israel that illustrate my point. That first one is on a storefront, by the way.
Hope this helps.

There are two types of people that will sacrifice a 1,000 or more of their own people to start a war. Extremely militant people with a cause and those that want to start a war to cover up corruption. Netanyahu was under some sort scandal and believe corruption accusations and for the moment that has gone away.
But revolutionaries will do things that cause many others to be killed and write poetry about it afterwards.
From the 1916 Easter uprising in Dublin and justifying the dead civilians. To such people dead civilians are merely a commodity or ammunition to use for propaganda to win.

Drums Under the Window
A rare time for death in Ireland;
and in the battle’s prologue
many a common man, woman, and child
had said goodbye to work and love and play;
and many more
in an hour or so
would receive a terse message
that life no longer needed them.

There they are,
lying so quiet:
a child surprised in the doorway;
an old man stretched in the street;
a young man near a lamp-post
which he had clutched
when the bullet struck him,
and down which he had slid when he died,
his curiously white face
containing wide eyes staring upwards,
as if asking the sky why this had happened,
a stiff arm still half-encircling the lamp standard;
a young lassie in holiday attire,
lying on her face,
maybe hurrying home
when she heard the uproar,
but going too slow,
for on the brilliant white blouse
a purple patch of death
was spreading over the middle of the back;
an old woman on the floor of her tenement room,
alone,
her blood seeping through the ceiling below;
all of the goodly company
of the dead who died for Ireland.
Jesu, have pity!

Quiet, comrades, quiet.
It was necessary that you should die for Ireland too.
You didn’t want to die.
I know, I know.
You signed no proclamation;
you invaded no building;
you pulled no trigger;
I know, I know.
But Ireland needed you all the same.

Many will die like that
before Ireland can go free.
They must put up with it.
You will be unknown forever;
you died without a word of praise;
you will be buried without even a shadowy ceremony;
no bugle will call your name;
no gunshot will let loose
brave echoes over your grave;
you will not be numbered among the accepted slain.

But listen, comrades, listen:
Whitman will be there to meet you;
he will marshall you into the march-past
with the greater dead;
on the cornet he will give you a shrill salute.
Listen: there it goes!
Forward!
March!

–Sean O’Casey
from Drums Under the Window

 

[gunsrfun1]

There are two types of people that will sacrifice a 1,000 or more of their own people to start a war. Extremely militant people with a cause and those that want to start a war to cover up corruption. Netanyahu was under some sort scandal and believe corruption accusations and for the moment that has gone away.
But revolutionaries will do things that cause many others to be killed and write poetry about it afterwards.
From the 1916 Easter uprising in Dublin and justifying the dead civilians. To such people dead civilians are merely a commodity or ammunition to use for propaganda to win.

Maybe I am misunderstanding you, but it's hard to believe that Netanyahu planned or allowed the attack on his own people to delay any trial for alleged corruption. Yes, any such trial has been put on hold temporarily (and it was not a foregone conclusion that he would even be brought to trial), but the vast majority of Israelis no longer support him anyway, because they blame him for the intelligence failure on this.

Not exactly a winning strategy on his part, if that were the case.

 

[FrommerStop]

Maybe I am misunderstanding you, but you seem to be saying Netanyahu planned or allowed the attack on his own people to delay any trial for alleged corruption. Are you serious? Are you aware that the vast majority of Israelis no longer support him because they blame him for the intelligence failure on this? Not exactly a winning strategy on his part, if that were the case.

Wow, talk about conspiracy theories!

The world is full of plans inside of plans. Some of these plans backfire and the sheep still have not a clue while going bah bah and get fleeced. On my maternal side I am descended from what was a large Belarusian Jewish family and I am not antisemitic, but am very much against Zionism. Especially when they start using Lebensraum ideology. My maternal grandfather got arrested for shooting at Cossacks attacking a temple in about 1905-6 during a pogrom. During the late 1930's my mother would go down with friend to protest german ships docking in NYC.

I am serious. There is no way that Israeli intelligence did not know an attack was coming. Now maybe they did not know just how bloody it was going to be. Also more than one person knew what was going on in the military and intelligence and were willing to make a sacrifice to stop the USA sponsored talks to normalize relations between the Israelis with the Saudis and Arab Emirates. You do have fanatics in Israel that do want to recreate the Kingdoms of Solomon and David. Old testament thinking is harsh. Remember how harsh a judgement Solomon was capable of making like cut the baby in two.
But remember these people were quite willing to do some bad things to two million people in Gaza in retaliation and we all should know that even when this is over, if there are still people in Gaza, they will attack again.
By the way the Iranians for the same reason wanted war in Gaza and was responsible for sending Hamas into Israel and surely knew how the IDF was going to respond.

 

[dashaus]

Counties need a public justification to attack
another county / marginalized race to galvanize
Internal support and support from allies
This same methodology goes goes back to the

Peloponnesian War and earlier ​

 

[FrommerStop]

Counties need a public justification to attack
another county / marginalized race to galvanize
Internal support and support from allies
This same methodology goes goes back to the

Peloponnesian War and earlier ​

Sometimes pagan barbarians have a refreshing honesty about such things. 'We want what you have.'
Edit
My dogs do not makes excuses either. The bigger one that is now called Miss Piggy takes things from the other dogs because she wants what they have and that is reason enough for her.

 

[gunsrfun1]

The world is full of plans inside of plans. Some of these plans backfire and the sheep still have not a clue while going bah bah and get fleeced. On my maternal side I am descended from what was a large Belarusian Jewish family and I am not antisemitic, but am very much against Zionism. Especially when they start using Lebensraum ideology. My maternal grandfather got arrested for shooting at Cossacks attacking a temple in about 1905-6 during a pogrom. During the late 1930's my mother would go down with friend to protest german ships docking in NYC.

I am serious. There is no way that Israeli intelligence did not know an attack was coming. Now maybe they did not know just how bloody it was going to be. Also more than one person knew what was going on in the military and intelligence and were willing to make a sacrifice to stop the USA sponsored talks to normalize relations between the Israelis with the Saudis and Arab Emirates. You do have fanatics in Israel that do want to recreate the Kingdoms of Solomon and David. Old testament thinking is harsh. Remember how harsh a judgement Solomon was capable of making like cut the baby in two.
But remember these people were quite willing to do some bad things to two million people in Gaza in retaliation and we all should know that even when this is over, if there are still people in Gaza, they will attack again.
By the way the Iranians for the same reason wanted war in Gaza and was responsible for sending Hamas into Israel and surely knew how the IDF was going to respond.

 

[gunsrfun1]

FrommerStop - Let's deconstruct some of what you are claiming:
1) "Especially when they start using Lebensraum ideology." - I assume you mean the Israelis. (It's hard to tell, because you use some dangling pronouns in your post without clarifying precisely who you are referring to.) It's laughable to claim that the Israelis have a desire for "Lebensraum" like the Nazis did, when Israel keeps giving back land it captures in wars that it did not start. It gave back the entire Sinai desert that it captured in the 1967 war. As a result of the Oslo Accords of 1993, it also gave back land on the West Bank that it had captured in the 1967 war. It withdrew from much of the Sinai that it had overtaken in the 1973 Yom Kippur War when it counterattacked. And in case you are not aware, Israel also gave back all of Gaza to the Arabs when it withdrew completely from Gaza in 2005. Hardly what I would call an expansionist policy of Lebensraum.
2) "There is no way that Israeli intelligence did not know an attack was coming." That's like saying that there was no way US intelligence did not know Pearl Harbor was coming. Not sure if you've served in the military (as I did), but things are not always black and white, especially with intelligence. Yes, Israeli intelligence and the Israeli military definitely ignored some obvious signs of an impending attack, just like we did before Pearl Harbor. But it's a giant leap of logic to assume that it means the Israelis (or the Americans in the case of Pearl Harbor) intentionally let the respective attacks occur. Hence the term, "the fog of war."
3) "Remember how harsh a judgement Solomon was capable of making like cut the baby in two." No offense, but it seems like you've misunderstood this story from 1 Kings Chapter 3, and it's clear that you haven't read it in full. The story is meant to illustrate the wisdom of Solomon in knowing that the real mother would object to cutting the baby in two, which is why he proposed this solution. Hence the last sentence of the chapter: "And all Israel heard of the judgment which the king had judged; and they feared the king; for they saw that the wisdom of God was in him, to do justice."
Again, no offense to you, but I think you are letting your conspiracy theories get in the way of the facts.
'Nuff said on my part for this string. On to the next world problem to solve.

 

[FrommerStop]

FrommerStop - Let's deconstruct some of what you are claiming:
1) "Especially when they start using Lebensraum ideology." - I assume you mean the Israelis. (It's hard to tell, because you use some dangling pronouns in your post without clarifying precisely who you are referring to.) It's laughable to claim that the Israelis have a desire for "Lebensraum" like the Nazis did, when Israel keeps giving back land it captures in wars that it did not start. It gave back the entire Sinai desert that it captured in the 1967 war. As a result of the Oslo Accords of 1993, it also gave back land on the West Bank that it had captured in the 1967 war. It withdrew from much of the Sinai that it had overtaken in the 1973 Yom Kippur War when it counterattacked. And in case you are not aware, Israel also gave back all of Gaza to the Arabs when it withdrew completely from Gaza in 2005. Hardly what I would call an expansionist policy of Lebensraum.
2) "There is no way that Israeli intelligence did not know an attack was coming." That's like saying that there was no way US intelligence did not know Pearl Harbor was coming. Not sure if you've served in the military (as I did), but things are not always black and white, especially with intelligence. Yes, Israeli intelligence and the Israeli military definitely ignored some obvious signs of an impending attack, just like we did before Pearl Harbor. But it's a giant leap of logic to assume that it means the Israelis (or the Americans in the case of Pearl Harbor) intentionally let the respective attacks occur. Hence the term, "the fog of war."
3) "Remember how harsh a judgement Solomon was capable of making like cut the baby in two." No offense, but you've completely misunderstood this story from 1 Kings Chapter 3, and it's clear that you haven't read it in full. The story is meant to illustrate the wisdom of Solomon in knowing that the real mother would object to cutting the baby in two, which is why he proposed this solution. Hence the last sentence of the chapter: "And all Israel heard of the judgment which the king had judged; and they feared the king; for they saw that the wisdom of God was in him, to do justice."
Again, no offense to you, but I think you are letting your conspiracy theories get in the way of the facts.
'Nuff said on my part for this string. On to the next world problem to solve.

Thank you for comments.

 

[Beached]

We are being bullshitted on all fronts. With coverage the way it is Israel would never have gotten away with cleaning up Gaza and possibly Iran there is no way with the tech they have and one of the top intelligence agencies in the world they did not know that attack was coming. We have a power hungry corrupt administration that knows without a war to avoid elections they will be booted out even with crooked elections. So look forward to us being at war before elections
This is my take on things.

 

[FrommerStop]

We are being bullshitted on all fronts. With coverage the way it is Israel would never have gotten away with cleaning up Gaza and possibly Iran there is no way with the tech they have and one of the top intelligence agencies in the world they did not know that attack was coming. We have a power hungry corrupt administration that knows without a war to avoid elections they will be booted out even with crooked elections. So look forward to us being at war before elections
This is my take on things.

There is profit also to made from military aid that goes to Israel and Ukraine or where ever. Eisenhower as he left office saw fit to warn the american people about the military industrial complex.
https://www.archives.gov/milestone-documents/president-dwight-d-eisenhowers-farewell-address
The problem is we have enemies. So we arm and threaten and they arm and threaten. We are all like the Indian proverb riding tigers. If we dismount, we get eaten.

As President of the United States for two terms, Eisenhower had slowed the push for increased defense spending despite pressure to build more military equipment during the Cold War’s arms race. Nonetheless, the American military services and the defense industry had expanded a great deal in the 1950s. Eisenhower thought this growth was needed to counter the Soviet Union, but it confounded him. Though he did not say so explicitly, his standing as a military leader helped give him the credibility to stand up to the pressures of this new, powerful interest group. He eventually described it as a necessary evil.

From his farewell speech.

In the councils of government, we must guard against the acquisition of unwarranted influence, whether sought or unsought, by the military-industrial complex. The potential for the disastrous rise of misplaced power exists and will persist.