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Gun Shop gets restraining order on BATF
- Thread starter Iwb4me
- Start date
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It's only extortion when we do it, when it's the government it's called investigating aggressively. :whistle:
Talking about rubbing the ATF's noses in it. Check this out: http://aresarmor.com/store/NewsArticle/CeaseAndDesistLtr
So basically they were a non FFL providing all the parts, tools, and knowledge to their customers to build a fully functional AR-15. It seems the build parties were a not so clever way of completing the builds for their customers. The ATF shuts downs the parties and then they publicly state no worries we are more clever than the ATF and will resume making your 80% firearms functional with no registration soon after we punk the ATF.
So basically they were a non FFL providing all the parts, tools, and knowledge to their customers to build a fully functional AR-15. It seems the build parties were a not so clever way of completing the builds for their customers. The ATF shuts downs the parties and then they publicly state no worries we are more clever than the ATF and will resume making your 80% firearms functional with no registration soon after we punk the ATF.
http://aresarmor.com/store/media/cms/xmodnewsrss/ATF-cease-and-desist.pdf
Well, that explains a lot. Getting harder to feel like they were wronged.
Well, that explains a lot. Getting harder to feel like they were wronged.
Iwb4me
Expert
You are right The more that comes out about this, the more I feel like the dude took it way too far.
Yep, goading them into doing something and then crying foul when they do something is pretty immature and childish. Hope they have enough funds left to continue in business when this is over because they do have good products and customer service.
Might be hard to continue business from a jail cell if the ATF really goes after him. Hopefully if he has no other criminal records or associations they will just hit him with fines. Can you all imagine the negative press if one of the rifles from those build parties were to be used in a mass shooting by an individual who couldn't otherwise pass a background check. They would be public enemy number #1.
Bean Counter
Marksman
From reading the ATF letter and his post he appears to be an idiot. Why not just back off, regroup and come up with a better idea? You never poke a government agency like that. There was a local guy years ago that did just that. Not firearms related. He pissed off one agency, made them look like fools in federal court. Guess what, he went to jail for something completely unrelated that a normal person would have been able to pay a small fine for. Piss them off and they will find something. Then when its a $500 fine or a year in jail you don't have the option to pay the fine. They find 5-10 of those and the judge decides to make them consecutive.
HughJoergan
Wiener Connoisseur
Morons. Curious though. If they weren't FFL's, exactly what "records" are they going after???
Well, from reading the ATF C&D letter, it looks like they consider the firearms built at the build parties to be illegally manufactured by Ares. Therefore everyone that was there, now owns an illegal firearm in the their eyes.
Those record I suppose, at least.
Those record I suppose, at least.
Reading some of the articles on this in the gunblog world and it's all how the ATF are Jackbooted thugs and should go to jail and so on it goes. The extremely long winded NutnFancy is all fired up and on the bandwagon as well. Under the current administration I agree it's easy to suspect the worst but we still have a lot of congressmen who stood up for gun rights. Playing devil's advocate here but is it not possible the ATF has other motives in this than the eventual confiscation of all our guns?
I was reading a law enforcement article that was talking about how they are finding large numbers of AR's being used by the cartels are being constructed out of 80% lowers coming from the states. They usually have an in-house machinist who can mill them in about an hour. So theoretically a place like Ares Armor could sell a large number of components including 80% lowers to anyone with no ID whatsoever....cash money. 40 or so 80% lowers, complete uppers, and parts kits would easily fit in the trunk of a vehicle and could be across the Mexican border in less than 30 minutes from their store location.
The Cartel machinist could easily have 40 or so fully functional rifles made in a few days time. No sweat for him to make them fully auto since they obviously could care less about the laws. Trying to step back and take an unemotional and logical look at this could it be that maybe the ATF is trying to prevent this type of thing?
Are we really okay with making our laws so lax that cartels can so easily source fully functional automatic weapons so easily and efficiently from the United States? How would it feel to know that a small village of dirt ass poor innocent Mexican farmers were slaughtered with the parts that were sitting in your shop weeks earlier? Don't get me wrong the cartels will get their weapons one way or the other but do we Americans have to be the ones providing them? Isn't there a reasonable way to protect our 2nd amendment rights and take reasonable steps to prevent this type of thing?
Is having to pass a background check for an AR lower, finished or not, really that much of an attack on personal liberty and a slippery slope to outright bans?
I was reading a law enforcement article that was talking about how they are finding large numbers of AR's being used by the cartels are being constructed out of 80% lowers coming from the states. They usually have an in-house machinist who can mill them in about an hour. So theoretically a place like Ares Armor could sell a large number of components including 80% lowers to anyone with no ID whatsoever....cash money. 40 or so 80% lowers, complete uppers, and parts kits would easily fit in the trunk of a vehicle and could be across the Mexican border in less than 30 minutes from their store location.
The Cartel machinist could easily have 40 or so fully functional rifles made in a few days time. No sweat for him to make them fully auto since they obviously could care less about the laws. Trying to step back and take an unemotional and logical look at this could it be that maybe the ATF is trying to prevent this type of thing?
Are we really okay with making our laws so lax that cartels can so easily source fully functional automatic weapons so easily and efficiently from the United States? How would it feel to know that a small village of dirt ass poor innocent Mexican farmers were slaughtered with the parts that were sitting in your shop weeks earlier? Don't get me wrong the cartels will get their weapons one way or the other but do we Americans have to be the ones providing them? Isn't there a reasonable way to protect our 2nd amendment rights and take reasonable steps to prevent this type of thing?
Is having to pass a background check for an AR lower, finished or not, really that much of an attack on personal liberty and a slippery slope to outright bans?
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I don't think we need anymore laws. Cartels had plenty of guns before 80% lowers became popular and background checks have already proved ineffective. If they were effective we would have people being arrested for being a felon in possession of a firearm. If a person wants a gun they can get pretty easily with or without a law about background checks.
FrankT
6.8 SPCII Hog Slayer
look like the raid happened anyway no matter the restraining order. no FFL needed for an 80% lower.
http://www.100percentfedup.com/inde...o-ares-armor-second-amendment-is-under-attack
http://www.100percentfedup.com/inde...o-ares-armor-second-amendment-is-under-attack
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No one said it did, but when you go into the business of teaching people how to do finish the lower it does require a manufacturer FFL. That is where they got jammed up with the ATF. There are plenty of companies teaching people how to make firearms and not being hassled by the ATF about it. The difference is they have a manufacturing FFL.
The judge left the ATF an out on the TRO saying it didn't apply to "legitimate criminal proceedings". The ATF had to get a judge to sign the search warrant, so at least one judge saw it as a legitimate criminal proceeding. Ares will be lucky if they come through this with enough cash left to stay in business, they aren't going to outspend the government if the government wants to make an example of them.
Not saying I agree with or support the ATF, but when you thumb your nose at the organization that can and will make your life difficult, it's not very bright.
All that said, I wish them the best because they are good guys regardless of what I think of their judgement.
ETA: My personal opinion is that we should roll gun laws back to pre-NFA34, but I know that will never happen.
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I fully realize what you say and agree for the most part. But background checks have been around over 20 years and it seems the 80% lower thing is just a way to get around them for whatever reason one may want to legal or not. Yes criminals can and will get guns but do we have to make it so easy and efficient for them? The violence will continue but why do we need to supply the murdering thugs with their weapons?
I would not advocate new laws that further limit our ability to obtain firearms. I'm not sure I have a real problem with them cracking down on fringe situations like this which are skirting existing laws and make criminal access to mountains of functional weaponry so easy and accessible.
Since our citizens are creating the demand for the drugs that keep the cartels in business we have some sort of moral responsibility to at least try and not supply them with the weapons they murder and reak havoc with.
FrankT
6.8 SPCII Hog Slayer
Their problem was w the poly 80% lower color coded as to what material to remove.
That was one issue and they already went after the original manufacture of the polymer lowers who also supplied Ares Armor with them. They also had a problem with the "build parties" in which Ares equipment and knowledge was used by the customers to turn the metal or polymer lowers into functional firearms. It would take some fancy lawyering to make a convincing argument that Ares Armor's advertising wasn't implying they would provide someone with a no background check and unregistered AR from start to finish.
FrankT
6.8 SPCII Hog Slayer
Well I hope they got plenty made to overthrow CA and the feds!
That was only part of it, the other part was the build parties they were hosting and charging admission to attend. Then what amounted to daring the ATF to do something when they refused to give up records of who had purchased receivers they had determined to be contraband. They had already raided EP Armory the manufacturer and confiscated receivers and equipment to make them and since Ares is the sole distributor they were looking at them to recover contraband and to find out where the contraband ended up.
I don't agree with the ATF if the manufacturing process is what is claimed by the manufacturer. I'd like nothing more than to see the ATF go away, but we all know it won't happen. I just don't see it being a very good financial move for Ares to try to prove in their words what "clever little bastards" they are. Especially in the liberal utopia of California.
The problem is there is no law that says anything about "80% receivers", that number was pulled out of thin air. So if you regulate 80% receivers someone will just make a 79.9% receiver. You can't regulate common sense and every time you create a new regulation the only thing that changes is how people work around the new regulation.
