Any sword experts here?

[DAS HUGH!]

Popped into one of my local stores today and saw he had what I think is a Japanes sword. It measures 33 inches from tang to tip. It has these marks. Can anyone give me any info as I'm thinking about buying it. A ballpark price too if you can. I'd also like to know if there's anyone in the south Alabama area that can re-fit a handle on it for if and when I do buy it. If so what would that cost so I know about what I'm getting into. Thanks!

 

[Grits1/5]

Popped into one of my local stores today and saw he had what I think is a Japanes sword. It measures 33 inches from tang to tip. It has these marks. Can anyone give me any info as I'm thinking about buying it. A ballpark price too if you can. I'd also like to know if there's anyone in the south Alabama area that can re-fit a handle on it for if and when I do buy it. If so what would that cost so I know about what I'm getting into

I’m not an expert, but I do collect antique swords, so I can offer my non-expert opinion. If it is real, someone greatly damaged the value by cleaning the tang. I also do not see the Harmon (wavy line) on the blade, and the tang looks to have more modern machine marks on the tang.
It is possible that it is one of the later war machined blades that the Japanese did later in the war. Even though they weren’t traditionally made, some of them had marked tangs.
Another possibility is that it is one of the many fake swords that have been coming from China for years. They go to considerable lengths to fake them, including the marked tangs.
It’s hard to tell from just that one picture, but it would have to be pretty cheap for me to take a chance on it. It looks a bit suspicious to me, I would have doubts of its authenticity unless a true independent expert examined it. Even if it’s real, the cleaned tang really kills its value. If it’s real, but machine made, that also hurts the value a lot. For mounts, you can find them on eBay, even original ww2 handle mounts aren’t crazy expensive, the valve of an original Japanese sword is really in the blade, and it’s common to have the mounts changed. Finding a scabbard to fit it, may be more challenging, due to small differences. Just my free opinion, I’m not an expert

 

[DAS HUGH!]

I’m not an expert, but I do collect antique swords, so I can offer my non-expert opinion. If it is real, someone greatly damaged the value by cleaning the tang. I also do not see the Harmon (wavy line) on the blade, and the tang looks to have more modern machine marks on the tang.
It is possible that it is one of the later war machined blades that the Japanese did later in the war. Even though they weren’t traditionally made, some of them had marked tangs.
Another possibility is that it is one of the many fake swords that have been coming from China for years. They go to considerable lengths to fake them, including the marked tangs.
It’s hard to tell from just that one picture, but it would have to be pretty cheap for me to take a chance on it. It looks a bit suspicious to me, I would have doubts of its authenticity unless a true independent expert examined it. Even if it’s real, the cleaned tang really kills its value. If it’s real, but machine made, that also hurts the value a lot. For mounts, you can find them on eBay, even original ww2 handle mounts aren’t crazy expensive, the valve of an original Japanese sword is really in the blade, and it’s common to have the mounts changed. Finding a scabbard to fit it, may be more challenging, due to small differences. Just my free opinion, I’m not an expert

It has a scabbard. It's a wooden inner with a very old beat up leather outter. The loops is missing on the scabbard also. I would have taken better photos but it was around closing time. I did a quick search and see some officer swords of that time from around 700$ all the way up to like 3k$ on ebay. He's wanting 700$ but that would nearly buy a whole officer sword. So I'm gonna offer like 500 up to maybe 600 since it's a gamble and I'd have to buy a new handle etc

 

[DAS HUGH!]

I do see some very minute pitting here and there on the blade. But the blade looks perfectly polished. As if it was possibly restored or an altered older sword maybe. No nicks in the blade. No evidence of it ever being sharpened. Many old swords I've seen all suffer from when kids get them and play fight and damage them lol. And yes I didn't notice a "hamone" line anywhere either now that you mention it. It definitely looks genuinely old tho

 

[Rebel_Rider1969]

It has a scabbard. It's a wooden inner with a very old beat up leather outter. The loops is missing on the scabbard also. I would have taken better photos but it was around closing time. I did a quick search and see some officer swords of that time from around 700$ all the way up to like 3k$ on ebay. He's wanting 700$ but that would nearly buy a whole officer sword. So I'm gonna offer like 500 up to maybe 600 since it's a gamble and I'd have to buy a new handle etc

I'd go $300. Might just end up being a giant letter opener...ymmv

 

[DAS HUGH!]

The Tsuba looks to have a nice patina and was very well fitted, very snug. I couldn't see any lines in the joints to hint as if it was a soldered up one made from thin modern material etc. It's very minimalistic tho, which is either a good sign or bad not too sure lol

 

[DAS HUGH!]

I'd go $300. Might just end up being a giant letter opener...ymmv

Ikr. Could be a jackpot. No telling really lol.

 

[fl57caveman]

 

[fl57caveman]

lots of info on youtube , you might be able to do it yourself on the handle..
the markings can tell you the maker also, if you can find someone who reads japanese.

 

[Bowhntr6pt]

Seems to me doing any alterations would ruin the value if it's legit no?

 

[DAS HUGH!]

lots of info on youtube , you might be able to do it yourself on the handle..
the markings can tell you the maker also, if you can find someone who reads japanese.

Thanks yeah I'll check that out

 

[DAS HUGH!]

Seems to me doing any alterations would ruin the value if it's legit no?

Yeah, and sometimes no. Some older swords from the very older periods were much larger. One made by a famous maker goes for big bucks. Back then not so much as today tho. After all they was tools, and status symbols. So some other maker down the line sometimes will take one of those and alter it to a smaller size. I think this happened to many if not most back then if I recall correctly. So sometimes if this happens and at least one famous maker is still involved it can stay the same sorta value wise. Sometimes they gain value if two famous makers are associated with one being altered. I think alot of the value is if is still polished in such a way they you can see the folds in the metal and the "hamone line" or not. This line was made by them putting clay in a decorative fashion along the edge before heat treating it. During this process the swords start as a straight piece of metal also btw. Then they heat it and the areas with the clay temper differently and get more carbides in them, and become harder. The spine of the blade isn't coated and it's also a thicker metal. Then they quinch it in water and when they do that's when the swoop of the blade is made. The thicker spine shrinks more than the thin edge when cooled. Then they polish it and after they're done the areas with the clay will leave a nice pretty foggy looking line down the middle of the blade.
Anyways yeah it's a super deep rabbithole on these sort of things. I just know what little I learned by watching shows about them

 

[Grits1/5]

It has a scabbard. It's a wooden inner with a very old beat up leather outter. The loops is missing on the scabbard also. I would have taken better photos but it was around closing time. I did a quick search and see some officer swords of that time from around 700$ all the way up to like 3k$ on ebay. He's wanting 700$ but that would nearly buy a whole officer sword. So I'm gonna offer like 500 up to maybe 600 since it's a gamble and I'd have to buy a new handle etc

Ah, if the scabbard is a good fit for it and indicates that it’s the original scabbard for it, that would be more evidence that the sword is genuine. In my experience, the leather covered wood scabbards are the “combat scabbards” which would indicate a ww2 sword. A nicely polished blade is nice, professional traditional polishing is ungodly expensive. If the blade had been professionally restored though, it’s unlikely that the person would have cleaned the tang though….having the kanji’s decifered will help, although fake signatures are not unheard of, even hundreds of years ago lol.
Based on what you have said, I’m leaning towards it being an original WW2 bring back sword, but probably a later machine made one. All my traditionally forged blades show the Harmon line. I haven’t purchased an antique Japanese sword in a few years, but I think $700 is pretty high for a sword of that type, in that condition, unless you can determine that it is a much earlier sword or from a well-respected smith. If you post pictures of the sword and signature on some of the Japanese sword forums, someone is usually nice enough to decipher them for you. I’ve tried deciphering them myself and it’s exhausting Good luck with it though! I hope it turns out to be a super rare and ancient blade, let us know what you find out!

 

[Duckyou]

Yeah, and sometimes no. Some older swords from the very older periods were much larger. One made by a famous maker goes for big bucks. Back then not so much as today tho. After all they was tools, and status symbols. So some other maker down the line sometimes will take one of those and alter it to a smaller size. I think this happened to many if not most back then if I recall correctly. So sometimes if this happens and at least one famous maker is still involved it can stay the same sorta value wise. Sometimes they gain value if two famous makers are associated with one being altered. I think alot of the value is if is still polished in such a way they you can see the folds in the metal and the "hamone line" or not. This line was made by them putting clay in a decorative fashion along the edge before heat treating it. During this process the swords start as a straight piece of metal also btw. Then they heat it and the areas with the clay temper differently and get more carbides in them, and become harder. The spine of the blade isn't coated and it's also a thicker metal. Then they quinch it in water and when they do that's when the swoop of the blade is made. The thicker spine shrinks more than the thin edge when cooled. Then they polish it and after they're done the areas with the clay will leave a nice pretty foggy looking line down the middle of the blade.
Anyways yeah it's a super deep rabbithole on these sort of things. I just know what little I learned by watching shows about them

Opposite - clay goes on the spine. It heats and cools slower resulting in milder metal that forms the bend once completely cooled

 

[Duckyou]

The sword looks fake.

If it looks good then I would pay $100-200. There is no way I would pay $700

 

[DAS HUGH!]

Opposite - clay goes on the spine. It heats and cools slower resulting in milder metal that forms the bend once completely cooled

Yeah one of the sides, I forgot which. I think some cheap swords make the bends with a machine. There's an art just to heat shrinking the metal to make the desired swoop. Pretty amazing stuff.
If you know alot about them, maybe you can answer this also. I visited the Ghangis Kahn exhibit once. I got to see alot of pretty cool "Chinese" swords. The Emporers swords, even Marko Polos sword was there. Anyways they had this double straight edge sword on display. Very cool blade. But it seemed to have holes drilled I to it every so often down the middle on the blade, and it looks like they inserted a gold rod into it. The rod itself was made of several even smaller wires or rods and looked like tiny rosettes. It really popped out and looked very cool. I've never been able to find out that those are called tho. Do you know what that's called? Look at far left of the photo with the tip of blade to see the inlayed gold thingy, then again in second photo, In the center. I've never seen any since like it

 

[fl57caveman]

I agree on offering lower than the asking price, i would not offer more than $300, until you know more about it.

personally, i do not care about keeping a blade in its condition when i buy it, a katana is supposed to be a work of art , as well as a functional blade...but many will not want to restore it to its former glory..


the handle markings will tell much about it, on older authentic swords, there was even a number to indicate how many corpses the blade can cut in half, they were tested on convict bodies..
7 was the most i have ever heard of...

 

[Grits1/5]

I agree on offering lower than the asking price, i would not offer more than $300, until you know more about it.

personally, i do not care about keeping a blade in its condition when i buy it, a katana is supposed to be a work of art , as well as a functional blade...but many will not want to restore it to its former glory..


the handle markings will tell much about it, on older authentic swords, there was even a number to indicate how many corpses the blade can cut in half, they were tested on convict bodies..
7 was the most i have ever heard of...

The history on Japanese swords is truly amazing. The swords were almost more spiritual than just physical. And they were handed down for many generations as priceless heirlooms….until Ww2, lol. GI’s brought back many as war trophies, but probably even more were destroyed by the US government and dumped deep in the ocean.
But the construction of the swords are amazing and definitely a work of art. And the testing of the old swords is amazing. In old Japanese culture, it was “legal” for the samurai’s to test their swords on even random peasants….some poor peasants could be walking down the road and a Samurai could literally just cut him/her in half, on a whim, just to test their swords

 

[Grits1/5]

Who the Hell is Coldy Bimore: My Small Part in the Search for the Honjo Masamune - Eric Writes

Let me give you a starting place: imagine a sword so unimaginably balanced and so masterfully constructed that it is considered by experts and collectors … more →

ericwrites.com

This is one of my favorite stories/mysteries on Japanese swords, fascinating story!!

 

[DAS HUGH!]

I'll update more soon as I'm off work. I got a loose translation from an Asian buddy I have and he said it was from the Edo period. If true its like 400 years old! Payed more than I wanted. But if I messed around too long it would be gone. So I rolled the dice