A/C Repair/Replacement

[305RSlc]

As luck would have it, my A/C started giving me some great problems during the hottest and, for the ac folks, busiest time of the year. The air handler that is located upstairs started leaking like crazy which caused damage to the downstairs bathroom ceiling. The home is about 1350 sq/ft, so I'm in need of replacing a 2.5 ton unit. A few questions popped up since I've started calling around.

1) Are their any companies that anyone would HIGHLY recommend I contact? Since I have water leaking through the duct work, I would like to get that replaced as well (don't want mold issues later on) and, so far, about half said they won't touch ducting....which I find odd.

2) What is typical cost to replace both inside and outside units? Again, it's a 2.5 ton system (old school Rheem, W shaped coil air handler, heat pump system). I would like to stay around 13 or 14 SEER and POSSIBLY go with a variable speed air handler if the price is right. So, I've seen the systems going for around $1,600-$1,900 online delivered to my door and am wondering what would be "reasonable" for labor (figure 8-10 hours), materials, permits, etc.

3) Disregarding all of the above....what are the pros and cons of going with a brand new 410 system vs just replacing the handler in the current 22 configuration? I ask because I was told this could be an option as well. Does 410a cool better or is just one of those required things because it doesn't give the ozone a black eye like R22 (supposedly) does?

Any advice, input, suggestions, etc are VERY much welcome. Now, time to go mop up another lake of water.....

 

[Stagman]

If it's leaking water the drain is probably plugged, you are supposed to put bleach down the drain followed by a cup of warm water once a month to prevent this from happening. When mine gets plugged I take a shop vac and suck out the outside drain to fix it. I am not an A/C repair man this is just what I do to fix mine, also I watched a A/C repair use the shop vac to clean out a drain. I hope this helps.

 

[305RSlc]

If it's leaking water the drain is probably plugged, you are supposed to put bleach down the drain followed by a cup of warm water once a month to prevent this from happening. When mine gets plugged I take a shop vac and suck out the outside drain to fix it. I am not an A/C repair man this is just what I do to fix mine, also I watched a A/C repair use the shop vac to clean out a drain. I hope this helps.

Awesome advice and I really appreciate it, but it is far beyond that. I have sucked the drain 3 times, took the cover off to make sure it had suction at the air handler, have a brand new float valve installed (so it'd cut off the ac if the drain got backed up). You can see where the water is dripping right off the coil and not making it to the drain. Granted, the coil is a bit dirty, but I just had it serviced two years ago, for the same issue, and I would think it should not leak down on freon enough in that short a time to cause this much condensation.

 

[merkinman]

Going to a R410 unit requires changing out all of the copper lines($) you can still get R22 and R422 is a drop in replacement gas for much less money, good luck.

 

[wildrider666]

1. As hot as it is lately, cooling systems are working very hard to keep up.
2. A one lb loss of coolant can cause the sysyem to run constantly, trying to maintain your temp setting.
3. Get rid of any hypo allergenic filters. They restrict air flow too much and cause the system to work harder then normal.
4. All A/C water is a result of humidity in the air and how your system runs.
A. Frozen coiles from dirty/restricted filter.
B. Water in ducts caused by poor insulation around duct work and proximity to hot areas (roof/walls). Condensation. Clean don't replace.
C. Water drain. If system has total shutdown, poss cause is water high level shutoff. Off/on/off/on is normally a slow drain that backs up and shuts off system. Water drains slowly the system starts again. Vacuum system doesn' t cut it most times. You need compressed air. Frogs and lizards enter from outside and get stuck an block them with the help of dust and dirt.
D. Frozen coils. Turn cooling OFF and fan to ON, it will melt. Dirty coils or filter, or low coolant. Blocked air flow allows cold air to stay around unit freezing condensation.
E. You can buy the foaming/expanding cleaner concentrate at the major hardware stores and use a bug sprayer to apply. Also clean/rinse with LOW PRESSURE WATER so you don't bend the fins.


5. R22 is still available in large quantities! HVAC Companies pay about $10 (current price) a lb, they want to charge you $80+ a pound. MAKE THE FIRST QUESTION YOU ASK IS THE PRICE OF THE COOLANT. Throw the B/S flag and get a better price. The Service Call covers the labor to top it off.

6. System installation price is a crap shoot. Depends where it is installed and access, and what other work needs to be done. You may also have problems finding a company to install something you buy. If you get it done that way and have a problem the MFG and installer will do the blame game with your in the middle. Basic installation $1700- 2200 ballpark.

7. Systems efficiency ratings will drive price. SEER Ratings. Do the math. A top of the line system may save you $150 a year but if it costs $4k more then the base unit and life expectancy is 10 years your pissing away money. Stay away from the WiFi controllers. Just more computer stuff to crap out and get hacked into your system.

8. Was quoted last week for a 2 ton 410 systems. Option ranged from $3900 to $8600 for full replacement less ducts.

 

[Kanaloa]

^^^^^^ wow. Now that explanation sets new standards for free advise! I'm going to remember this thread. Thanks

 

[Va boy]

I had a unit done last year, in and outside heat pump. No duct work was involved so I can't speak to that. The company was Anderson Air. I am totally satisfied with the install. Call Sean at 346-0979. He came out to the house with estimates and system coices based on home calculations. No pressure. His install crew was on point and I didn't hear profanity. I also quaified for a Gulf Power $600 rebate for the upgrade from my 30 Y/O system. I was limping it along with AHS, but that's fodder for another thread.

 

[Seanpcola]

Another option:mini splits. Just changed out my downstairs central unit for a split system. A little more expensive for the initial purchase but I couldn't be happier. No duct work to mess with, no loss of efficiency and this sucker blows out arctic air even in the middle of the hottest days. Quiet, extremely efficient. Also, a whole lot less to mess with if it needs servicing. I'm going to do the upstairs next Spring, hopefully the present central unit up there will hold out till then.

 

[305RSlc]

Great advice here and appreciate the recommendations.

Sean, I thought of the split system, but it's such a small house with a lack of space to put another unit that I don't know if it'd be feasible.

I'm wondering niw, based on the above info, what's a normal amount of leak down of freon over time? I had about a pound and a half put in about 2 years ago, but never had to mess with it prior to that and have owned the home 6 years now. Even if the system is "only " a pound low, causing the system to work OT and creating more condensation, is that normal within the timeframe mentioned? I ask because the coil has a good amount of rust where the lines are, so I'm wondering if rust causes additional leak issues due to metal becoming more porous.

 

[Seanpcola]

305, the split takes up less space. Compressor outside, heads in whichever rooms work the best, no inside air handler. Where my downstairs handler used to be is now an additional pantry since it's next to the kitchen.

 

[pcola4]

Call caleb connell over at air design. He did a great job for me.

Sent from my SM-G900V using Tapatalk

 

[305RSlc]

305, the split takes up less space. Compressor outside, heads in whichever rooms work the best, no inside air handler. Where my downstairs handler used to be is now an additional pantry since it's next to the kitchen.

Color me educated. I was thinking a split system was more of two separate and smaller units to have a dual climate control for upstairs and downstairs. Thanks for clarifying.....I may need to look into this a little further.

 

[Seanpcola]

What you have is an outside compressor that takes up to 3 heads, depending on model. Each head is its own cooling, intake/exhaust, fan and directional control vanes. Mounts up near the ceiling. Each head is separately controlled by a remote as to temo, fan speed, etc. The compressor only runs hard enough to supply what ever combination of heads are being used and the demand. In my case my downstairs is mainly one big room with the stairway dead center. I only have one head down there but it's 20k BTU and it freaking freezes every square inch of downstairs if you tell it to do so.

Upstairs, I'll have one outside compressor and a head in each bedroom for 3 total. I'm finding that if you keep, like the downstairs bathroom door cracked open it gets plentybcool, same for laundry room and pantry. This makes me think all the ceiling vents in every single room is unnecessary. That the cold air is dumping directly into the space and not traveling through ductwork makes it even more efficient.

I'm of the opinion that central heat and air is a thing of the past. I can't wait to rip the upstairs handler out and control each room separately. That way in the middle of summer I can make my bedroom form icicles and momma can go sleep in the spare bedroom at whatever hell's temperature she thinks the room has to be so she can not die of frostbite during the night. Or vice versa.

One other point: Back on my new downstairs unit. How about 2:00 PM, outside temperature around 96° and my meter shows a little under 5 amp TOTAL continuous draw while momma stands in the kitchen with her lips turning blue?

305, you're welcome to come by and look at my setup if you want.

 

[wildrider666]

Corrosion and rust are common. It happens faster if you live near the beach. Service techs have sniffers that detect leaks IF the leak is big enough. Sniffed my system 3 times by two dif Companies and they could not find it. Some places are too restricted to get the sniffer into. Techs should be using a formula to figure out your systems coolant level: system capacity, outside air temp and system pressure I think. Too much coolant can be as bad as too little.

Leak stop. There are two types for A/C systems. First is a polymer based, it is pressurized into you system and where ever it contacts air it changes to a solid and plugs the hole. BUT it has a very bad rep for clogging systems, inst gauges and inst hoses. Further some reviews say it leads to premature failure of components. The second product is A/C Stop Leak Plus. It is a oil based product that clots when exposed to air and the clot grows as long as there is air contact then stops, it will not seal cracks, just pin holes. It keeps circulating within the system and will seal future holes. It had good reviews but is only sold in bulk. I only asked one contractor (he was the company owner) about these products. He said they are junk, clog systems, require more components to be replaced instead of just the one with the leak and would void warranties. If you have a old leaking system it might be worth a shot if you can find someone that stocks and installs it.

System size. Buy the right on based on the size of te structure. People love to upgrade! House starts with a 1.5 ton system which works great till death. People then put in a 2 ton works good until death. New owner wants bigger and better system gets a 3 Ton. This owner gets the same level of coolness but power bills go nuts. Why? He is pushing 3 tons cubic volume through ducts designed to flow 1.5 tons. The system is now too restricted on the output side as it tries to shove big air through a little hole so the system is working too hard.

if you can get a Service check and fill for under $200 and get another year or two out of your system it is money well spent. You can then put away some bucks for when it crashes hard and you will be in better shape for the big bill.

Not sure of your local but Pat Green Heating an A/C is a good outfit. A lot of the info I posted was from my dealings with Pat.
Good luck.

 

[305RSlc]

Corrosion and rust are common. It happens faster if you live near the beach. Service techs have sniffers that detect leaks IF the leak is big enough. Sniffed my system 3 times by two dif Companies and they could not find it. Some places are too restricted to get the sniffer into. Techs should be using a formula to figure out your systems coolant level: system capacity, outside air temp and system pressure I think. Too much coolant can be as bad as too little.

Leak stop. There are two types for A/C systems. First is a polymer based, it is pressurized into you system and where ever it contacts air it changes to a solid and plugs the hole. BUT it has a very bad rep for clogging systems, inst gauges and inst hoses. Further some reviews say it leads to premature failure of components. The second product is A/C Stop Leak Plus. It is a oil based product that clots when exposed to air and the clot grows as long as there is air contact then stops, it will not seal cracks, just pin holes. It keeps circulating within the system and will seal future holes. It had good reviews but is only sold in bulk. I only asked one contractor (he was the company owner) about these products. He said they are junk, clog systems, require more components to be replaced instead of just the one with the leak and would void warranties. If you have a old leaking system it might be worth a shot if you can find someone that stocks and installs it.

System size. Buy the right on based on the size of te structure. People love to upgrade! House starts with a 1.5 ton system which works great till death. People then put in a 2 ton works good until death. New owner wants bigger and better system gets a 3 Ton. This owner gets the same level of coolness but power bills go nuts. Why? He is pushing 3 tons cubic volume through ducts designed to flow 1.5 tons. The system is now too restricted on the output side as it tries to shove big air through a little hole so the system is working too hard.

if you can get a Service check and fill for under $200 and get another year or two out of your system it is money well spent. You can then put away some bucks for when it crashes hard and you will be in better shape for the big bill.

Not sure of your local but Pat Green Heating an A/C is a good outfit. A lot of the info I posted was from my dealings with Pat.
Good luck.

Good stuff here, never would've guessed it was second hand info. You could have easily passed for a veteran technician with the info you're providing. I'm not a fan of those stop leak type things as I had some dealings with them in the automotive realm with cooling systems and they did just what you eluded to, clogged systems and caused premature failure of components within the system. IMHO, they were always a short term fix AND a long term expense. I do like the idea of the sniffer being used to detect leaks since it'll cost close to $500 to pull and clean the coil as no one will do it in place and it'd be foolish to put in something that might possibly have a leak. I'm still undecided since I have only gotten one solid quote on both options and no one has even put gauges on my system to see if it's low...

Sean, I like the sound of what you're talking about. Did a quick Guuuugle and it's one of those fancy Mitsubishi systems, right? Granted, probably other manufacturers out there, but they seem to be the most prevalent. They do sound pretty awesome but with the quick search I did, they tend to be on the pricier side (compared to regular unit replacements) and work best with open areas, like you illustrated, as it cuts down on the number of heads needed within the house. I have a very compartmentalized floor plan, with two beds down stairs with a bath, kitchen, dining, hall, livingroom, and foyer, and then a loft, bath, and bedroom upstairs. I'm wondering how efficient the air movement would be with so many different paths to take without trying to install one head per room (read $$$). Pull 5 amps though on a July summer afternoon...and seeing that these things are rated in the (for the gooder ones) 20+ SEER ratings is pretty appealing. i may take you up on checking your system after I get a few more quotes. :nod:

 

[Seanpcola]

It wasn't cheap I admit. But, the confidence in the system, efficiency and modularity for quick, easy repair is what hooked me. I'll publicly state what it cost me: $4350.00 for downstairs and that's about 1200 square feet. That was everything including taking out the air handler, sealing all lines and fittings in the slab, shutting the duct work and outside trim work for the lines running from the compressor to the head. Each additional head is about $1000.

 

[wildrider666]

Another common A/C problem with a cheap fix. Outside unit fan not turning.
1. Check power. Reset breakers.
2. With a frangable stick try to turn fan manually. Frozen: replace fan motoe yourself. Motor $125 and up on net and about $225 local but check around. Dozen screws and 3 wires. See youtube.
3. Blades turn freely. THIS IS WHAT I DO. IT IS NOT A RECOMMENDATION FOR YOU TO DO ANYTHING LIKE THIS. DISCLAIMER AND ALL THAT STUFF. Power on and setting few degrees below room temp. Rapidly turn fan blades with thin frangable or flexible stick. This is to get the fan to a speed where the motor can pick up and accelerated it to normal speed. I remove the stick. If it runs, let it continue and in a few minutes check if cool air flows in house. If this works, you have a bad capacitor. A capacitor is about $15 - $25 on local supply. The capacitor does two things, gives a power surge to start fan turning and it does the same to your compressor. NOTE: Same fix if compressor will not run.
4. Inspection and replacement. Shut off thermostat, remove power from 120V and 220 at main boxes AND pull fuzes at box near outside unit. Open service panal. SHOCK HAZARD, DON'T TOUCH ANYTHING inside! Capacitor the looks like a silver metal cyclinder (size varies). Take a pic of the wiring and the specs on the label. You may see corrosion on the connectors and or bulged top like a bad can of food (connector end) these are sure signs its bad. REPLACE THE CAPACITOR. Watch a youtube vid on discharging the old capacitor and checking for hot wires BEFORE YOU TOUCH. With part in hand, job takes 5 min. When its all done turn it on. It will take a little time for the capacitor to charge before it starts the fan and compressor. Give it a minute or two.

 

[Seanpcola]

Easy way to do a quick check on the start capacitor is to visually inspect it. They will puff up when they go bad usually. It's not 100% accurate but if your unit isn't kicking on see if you can look at the capacitor without taking the case apart. If it looks puffed up then you can start there.

 

[fl57caveman]

Another common A/C problem with a cheap fix. Outside unit fan not turning.
1. Check power. Reset breakers.
2. With a frangable stick try to turn fan manually. Frozen: replace fan motoe yourself. Motor $125 and up on net and about $225 local but check around. Dozen screws and 3 wires. See youtube.
3. Blades turn freely. THIS IS WHAT I DO. IT IS NOT A RECOMMENDATION FOR YOU TO DO ANYTHING LIKE THIS. DISCLAIMER AND ALL THAT STUFF. Power on and setting few degrees below room temp. Rapidly turn fan blades with thin frangable or flexible stick. This is to get the fan to a speed where the motor can pick up and accelerated it to normal speed. I remove the stick. If it runs, let it continue and in a few minutes check if cool air flows in house. If this works, you have a bad capacitor. A capacitor is about $15 - $25 on local supply. The capacitor does two things, gives a power surge to start fan turning and it does the same to your compressor. NOTE: Same fix if compressor will not run.
4. Inspection and replacement. Shut off thermostat, remove power from 120V and 220 at main boxes AND pull fuzes at box near outside unit. Open service panal. SHOCK HAZARD, DON'T TOUCH ANYTHING inside! Capacitor the looks like a silver metal cyclinder (size varies). Take a pic of the wiring and the specs on the label. You may see corrosion on the connectors and or bulged top like a bad can of food (connector end) these are sure signs its bad. REPLACE THE CAPACITOR. Watch a youtube vid on discharging the old capacitor and checking for hot wires BEFORE YOU TOUCH. With part in hand, job takes 5 min. When its all done turn it on. It will take a little time for the capacitor to charge before it starts the fan and compressor. Give it a minute or two.

i just call the ac man....it is cheaper in the long run

 

[Seanpcola]

My AC guy told me the start capacitors that come from China (apparently a helluva lot of them) blow real easy. He suggested buying a spare just to have around. I did that for my upstairs unit and sure enough, one hot summer day the wife called and said it was dead in the water. Ran home, looked through the grill, confirmed the puff and had it swapped in 15 minutes. I think the capacitor cost me around $35. That can save you some bucks.