HD Tactical

9mm Parabellum from a 3.0-3.5" barrel -- is it enough power for a CCW?

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  • flyandscuba

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    Pocket pistols abound. In the last 5 years, a plethra of pocket pistols have hit the market in both .380 ACP and 9mm Parabellum. Single stack "common man" IWB pistols are now the current craze -- such as the P938, LC9, Nano, Solo, XDS, etc. Many committed daily CCW wearers have begun to move up from the pocket pistol .380 platform to the larger -- but still comfortable carry -- single stack 9mm Para pistols as an EDC set-up (including yours truly).

    We have also seen improvements in self defense ammunition -- especially in effective 9mm projectiles -- during the last decade. We have ballistic gelatin videos and shots fired through everything from layers of denim -- to drywall, auto glass, sheetmetal, ad naseum. As great as these illustrations are, the way a particular bullet/loading is going to perform in an actual shooting into a live human aggressor remains unpredictable. Bullets do strange things when they pass into and through the human body -- sometimes appearing almost as if they are "divinely guided". There is no magic bullet...none.

    There are those who prefer small/light/fast/high capacity to those who feel large/heavy/slower/lower capacity fits the bill. For 75 years, the US Military used the .45 ACP as the sidearm of choice on the field of battle. After a couple of decades being saddled with the NATO standard of 9mm Parabellum in a politically driven pistol platform -- elements of the military are returning again to the tried and true Browning 1911 and 45 ACP. We have seen law enforcement agencies switching from the norm of the .38 Special/.357 Magnum wheelguns of the 60s and 70s to the high capacity "9mm is fine" pistols of the 80s and into the 10mm (.40 S&W) wonder cartridge of the 90s -- only to go back into the 9mm in many cases after the turn of the century (while others have embraced the .45 diameter projectile, example is the FHP).

    So, is 9mm good enough for those of us who are dedicated daily concealed carry citizens? Well, lets look at the recent "circus" of the George Zimmerman / Trayvon Martin encounter. George Zimmerman was carrying probably the first entry into the slim single-stack belt carry 9mm pistol to hit the market on that fateful night. From what I've read, it was loaded with factory S&B JHP ammunition -- a standard JHP design similar to the Federal Hi-Shok (not Hydra Shok) BP9 loading. It was not a bonded bullet and jacket separation did occur in the wounding.

    This single shot was fired at near contact distance (2-4 inches) and passed through a hoodie made of sweatshirt material and an inner t-shirt (barriers). The bullet passed through skin and then the 5th intracostal space (passing between the ribs and NOT driving through bone). Once entering the chest cavity, it passed through the pericardial sac (tough) and passed through the right ventricle of the heart (muscular) and the right lower lobe of the lung, stopping in the right plueral cavity. There was no exit wound. The lead core of the bullet was recovered in the pericardial sac behind the right ventricle. Jacket fragments were found in right pleural cavity behind the right lower lobe of the lung (indicating bullet fragmentation/jacket separation of the non-bonded bullet). Mr. Martin had a lean muscular build on a 71 inch frame weighing 158 pounds. The path of the bullet is consistent with what would be expected from a right-handed shooter firing from a position of semi-retention after drawing the firearm from a holster on the right waist. The lack of excessive external bleeding on the clothing/on the scene and the presence of approximately 2300cc of blood in the chest cavity (a hemothorax consisting of roughly half of the total quantity of blood expected to exist in a 158 pound person, collapsing both lungs) tells me that Mr. Martin bled out into his chest cavity fairly quickly.

    Entrace of the bullet was appromimately where you see the #5 diamond in the image below:


    What does this indicate to us in terms of ballistic performance of the S&B (standard pressure) JHP non-bonded bullet design? My thoughts are coming from a retired flight paramedic who has treated hundreds of gun shot wound victims -- both in the field and in Level I and II Trauma Centers. However, I am not a physician nor a medical examiner. Dr. Meade or other qualified medical professional will be able to offer a true professional opinion here on the forum -- but here's my "layman's" opinion...

    Although the bullet accomplished the intended goal of ending the threat to Mr. Zimmerman's life by stopping the aggression and assault committed by Mr. Martin -- the bullet performed poorly ballistically. Yes, you read that right -- I feel the bullet was a fail.

    The "standard" we see in FBI tests is a minimum of 12 inches of penetration into the human body -- after passing through any barriers. Hold a 12 inch ruler up against the side of the chest of a similar sized teenager. I think you will find that the average tall, thin 158 pound teenager will have a chest measured from front to back of less than 12 inches in length, even if held at a slight angle like the path of the bullet in this case. That means that a "successful" bullet performance in FBI testing terms would both enter into, pass through, and exit the subject. In this case, if you were able to measure from the entrance wound (front to back) to the pericardial sac behind the right ventricle (where the bullet core was recovered) -- I believe the measurement would be considerably less than 12 inches (help me out Doc). Given that this bullet was fired from near contact distance, you would think that the bullet would travel the greatest potential distance through the target subject as compared to bullets fired from progressively greater distances within the "typical" self defensive situation (lets say up to 21 feet). So, theoretically -- we should have seen the best penetration possible in this near contact situation for this particular bullet/load combination.

    So, from all this evaluation and theorization from this layman -- is 9mm enough from a 3.0-3.5" barrel? I think that it can be. Recognizing again that bullet wounds and bullet performance are very unpredictable when it comes to humans (or game animals) -- I think one needs to choose self defense ammunition carefully. Remember, there is no wonder bullet! I believe the S&B standard velocity 9mm JHP bullet was 115 grains. This projectile is too light for my preferences. In 9mm, I prefer 124 gr or heavier. If your pistol is rated for +P or +P+ ammunition -- and you are able to shoot well and accurately with the added recoil and muzzle rise -- I suggest carrying higher-than-standard-pressure ammunition for self defense as well. I also and sold on the benefits of a bonded bullet for weight retention, penetration, and success in defeating any barriers. Gold Dots and PDX1 bullets are bonded. There are others as well. Visiting manufacturer's websites can usually confirm if a bullet is bonded or not. Do not rely upon the opinion of the pimple-faced clerk at the local big box store -- or the "expert" at the typical gun shop.

    I am impressed by the bonded loads (Gold Dot) offered by Underwood Ammunition for 9mm Parabellum. A 124 grain +P+ load is available with an advertised velocity of 1300 fps and 465 ft/lbs. My preference is their 147 grain +P+ load rated at 1175 fps and 451 ft/lbs. I have fired Underwood Ammunition over my own personal Chrony and have found all loadings fired to be within 50 fps of advertised velocities in all calibers I've purchased (unlike Double Tap who is notorious for exaggerating velocities).

    The one thing proven in this case is that shot placement is primary. The bullet fired by Mr. Zimmerman hit center mass -- hit the heart (the pump) -- causing the assailant to suffer a mortal wound. Proper shot placement comes from practice. Practice from a variety of distances to the target -- to include near contact distance from a position of weapon retention. Knowing where the bullet will go from a position of retention in a contact/near contact situation is something that can be assured with proper practice. Did Mr. Zimmerman know where his bullet would go -- while dazed and wounded, or was he just lucky? I suspect it all lined up by chance rather than from consistent practice. In some respects he was lucky (the shot ended the threat), but in other respects he was unlucky (the assailant did not survive to either confirm or deny his recollection of the events). Of course, some may feel he was lucky in all respects!

    Comments -- opinions?
     

    Mr. Katanga

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    Rule number one of a gun fight, bring a gun. I think people take all this ballistics stuff way to serious, the same shot with a 32 FMJ would probably had the same result, no matter how good your ammo is shot placement is key. If you feel like you may need to use a gun in self defense I would worry more about who my attorney is than the brand of ammo I carry.
     

    flyandscuba

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    True and good point. I guess what I was trying to communicate - is that if Mr. Martin had been a "beefy" 320+ pound linebacker, the bullet may not have done the job.

    All thugs aren't less than 6ft and 160 pounds... You never know what might decide to give trouble on the streets...
     

    ben_p

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    That's why I carry 17+1. Surely one of them will be magic.
     

    Mr. Katanga

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    Yeah one thing to note especially if you carry 9mm and smaller, .380, 9 Mak, 32, ect. FMJ is a better carry choice because in pocket pistols with low velocity the HP rounds rarely have enough velocity to open up, a FMJ is more likely to penetrate deep enough to cause trauma. Not to mention some guns are more reliable with FMJ but there are exceptions Like Khars. Another thing I see a lot is people that practice with a certain ammo for target practice and keep some fancy ammo for carry that they never shoot. If you practice with a FMJ and know that it works don't switch to something else until you have shot enough of what you carry, WITH the mag you plan on carrying to make sure the thing is gonna go bang.
     

    joe

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    I would not think Sellier & Bellot would be considered premium ammo. Why someone would use cheap carry ammo I do not know.

    I have no wear near the experience of most on here but for me if the barrel of the pistol I am firing is shorter then 4"long I try to use a +P to help compensate for the shorter barrel.

    It seems from the gel tests I have watched on You Tube that if you run +p in a gun with a 4 " barrel the bullet expands more then normal which can reduces the penetration. While one should not make a decision based on one test it is something to take into account.

    Glock 19 4" barrel Penatration , Expansion
    9mm 147+P HST, 11.25" .70"
    9MM 147 HST 13.25" .664"

    Videos
    147 grain +p HST
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i67WILeK66Y

    147 grain HST
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PNRqrJRq4T0

    Here is the underwood 147 speer gold dot +p+
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TMiI8VcPQ3c
     
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    Mr. Katanga

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    Just because its +p doesn't mean its faster out of a shorter barrel, and I think 147 is too heavy of a bullet for a 9mm, that bullet can't get wider and to get heavier it has to take up more powder capacity. I think a 115 or 124 is a petter choice for 9mm no matter what barrel your using.
     

    Django

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    I believe when they look at 12 inches of penetration (I wish I was capable of the same :hail:) that they take in consideration of an assailant holding a weapon in front of them and the bullet being able to penetrate through the arms and in to center of mass. Like everyone always says, shot placement is key. I personally think you can't go wrong with any of the common s.d. handgun calibers 9mm, .40 and .45, .38 .357, etc..
     

    flyandscuba

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    In addition to the bonded bullets, I also believe that the Barnes X type of bullet (solid copper hollow point) to be a good option. 100% weight retention, excellent expansion -- and good performance against barriers. Corbon's 115gr DPX load should be a good choice to consider.
     

    SAWMAN

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    I carry a couple of different Glocks chambered in 357Sig. I am not a ballistics "guru" however I do have my opinions that have been gained by(hopefully)good intel. For me ALL FMJ's are out. Penetration aside,I want expansion...realizing that for the most part you can't have the best of both worlds. Pistol/revo bullets are moving just too damned slow. (Even my "pocket rocket".)

    But,given I have read all the articles by the likes of Hatcher,Marshall,Ackley,and a bunch more, I have come to some conclusions that I believe in. This....remembering that we all gotta believe in something. (My use of "pistol" is to include revo's)
    1. A pistol is not a rifle or shotgun. We carry a pistol because the other two weapons are just too big.
    2. A pistol does not even come close to the delivered energy or penetration of the other two.(shot for shot)
    3. However...some pistols are capable of delivering as much total energy on target as some of the other two.
    4. Generally,a pistol is easier and faster to deliver the first shot with than the other two.
    5. A pistol is easier to move with than the other two.
    6. A pistol is much easier to shoot while moving than the other two. (And deliver accurate hits to COM)

    Given all this,I cannot envision a scenario that I would simply fire one shot. I am wondering why Z did. However,UNFORTUNATELY,it is probably better for him that he did. That alone could have sent him to jail..even...if the two shots were half second apart.

    We all owe it to ourselves and our family members to be as knowledgeable as possible re. the tools that we choose to protect ourselves and them. I will not belittle a man that chooses a 22LR 5 shot revo for this purpose. However I do appreciate this thread as it makes me/us think and learn. Surely any pistol is better that no pistol at all. That...and....a dose of situational awareness can go a long way to ensure our safety. --- SAWMAN
     

    TURTLE

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    I only keep the best ammo I can in all my carry weapons because of their intended use. It's there to save your life so why skimp? In my 9's right now anyway I have 115gr Hydroshock, in my 45's I have 200gr Zombie max. I agree that placement is key. I feel like the .22 magnum would be just fine out of my PMR30. I would never carry it though. If any of you have shot one you know it has a hair trigger. And when I mean hair, I mean maybe an ounce at best. It's kinda scary to be honest. I also have a little NAA .22 mag boot gun that would be deadly as well. It's amazing the penetration a fast moving .22 has. They get far too little credit.
     

    Marquezj16

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    Get ammo from a respectable source (check out ballistic gel testing, ie. Federal, Hornady, etc...), shoot it using your carry gun making sure it runs 100%, and know the law.

    I would not put too much stock on one case as to say 9mm is to slow or not enough out of a shorter barrel.
     

    smithnsig

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    Federal HST 147 gn is one of the best ss rounds for 9 mm. It loses less than 60 fps out of a 3" barrel. To say 147 does not work in 9 mm because it's too slow is so 1980's. Them, and Ranger-t 147 variant 2 are designed to function at 800 fps.

    Speer gold dot 124+p gets over 1100 fps out of a 3" barrel, and that's enough to function. Using FMJ because a hollow point may not
    Expand is counterintuitive.
     

    statdoc

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    All handgun ammo is weak. Bullets are cheap. Put multiple rounds in areas that will kill the bad guy rapidly, especially the brain stem.
     

    Sailing_Faith

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    Federal HST 147 gn is one of the best ss rounds for 9 mm. It loses less than 60 fps out of a 3" barrel. To say 147 does not work in 9 mm because it's too slow is so 1980's. Them, and Ranger-t 147 variant 2 are designed to function at 800 fps.

    Speer gold dot 124+p gets over 1100 fps out of a 3" barrel, and that's enough to function. Using FMJ because a hollow point may not
    Expand is counterintuitive.

    I add my voice to the choris of those who do not claim to be experts.. But is velocity not much more significant then mass?

    If a 147g mullet is sub 800fps and a 124g is closer to 1100, is the 124g not likely to transmit much more energy to the target?
     
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