Wrong apartment....

[Bodhisattva]

If it were my call... I'd leave absent any other credible information that PHYSICAL VIOLENCE had taken place.

As a Supervisor, I've instructed officers to leave under the exact same circumstances.

From what I know of the encounter, your response seems spot on.

What if this had been a traffic stop and he had a gun? Oh….wait…we know how those have turned out. Bottom line, I see todays environmental conditions as cop sees gun, cop fires.

Do any encounters with guns end in suspect citizen accused as just arrested anymore?

 

[Rational Mind]

From what I know of the encounter, your response seems spot on.

What if this had been a traffic stop and he had a gun? Oh….wait…we know how those have turned out. Bottom line, I see todays environmental conditions as cop sees gun, cop fires.

Do any encounters with guns end in suspect citizen accused as just arrested anymore?

The environmental conditions you mention has left everyone in a terrible situation. I just saw the body cam footage where the man and his sixteen year old daughter were pulled over, forced out of the vehicle at gunpoint, forced to their knees at the threat of being shot by multiple police with their fingers on the triggers and handcuffed because a deputy entered the license plate number incorrectly. People justifiably fear the police and the police justifiably fear the people. Society has fallen to a low point and it was all done by design.

 

[Bowhntr6pt]

You've always seemed fair in the replies to these type of discussions. The current state of our Country leaves you in a dilemma. Do you retire, take your pension, hunt, fish, teach your classes ? or continue in your career that you've devoted so much of your life to and be demonized by the media and public due to the actions of others ? As I stated in another thread, I couldn't have been prouder the day my niece became a cop and I couldn't have been happier the day she resigned. I don't envy any law enforcement officer right now.

I'm able to retire... I choose to stay on a little longer to get to the financial position I'd like to be. Being retired military (twenty years active duty) helps. I work in a good area where people still do what you ask w/o a whole lot of "am I being detained".

I gave my last class this past weekend... tired of dealing with people... even in the training industry, people will piss you off.

Due to the political climate over the past ten to fifteen years, a lot of level-headed and experienced people have left LE for various reasons... some because of the "no excuses" attitudes displayed in this thread where perfect human behavior in all incidents and circumstances is an absolute must with ALL the responsibility for bad outcomes lying at an officer's feet. It's simply not realistic.

How's that working out?

There are stone cold FU's by police every day... plenty of straight forward cut and dry things to hang your hat on and call for a person's @ss on a platter... like the guy who unsuccessfully tried to Taze a guy and then shot him multiple times in the back when he ran. But people now days will take anything they can get... grey, muddy, convoluted, it doesn't matter, we demand perfect thought processes at all times by LEO's under all conditions no matter who or what the situation.

Kind of a tall order no?

Societies lust for perfect human performance under any and all circumstances will never be satisfied. Anyone in LE with half a brain sees this, and as I tell my people constantly, we are all just one call away from being the next YouTube sensation. Small town, big town, doesn't matter as social media has opened up all areas... what was once believed to be a big city problem is no more. Batter up... who's next I say. Thus many leave LE shortly after getting a taste of the job and the murky circumstances in which the job is performed.

It's been a good ride for me but the dynamics of the job have changed in a negative way. Honestly, I talked my son out of leaving the AF and coming to work for us despite our agency is still one of the good ones.

I do look forward to pulling the plug and no longer having to leave my world to enter my "working world" where I live my life twelve hours at a time... how sweet it will be I'm sure.

 

[fl57caveman]

I'm able to retire... I choose to stay on a little longer to get to the financial position I'd like to be. Being retired military (twenty years active duty) helps. I work in a good area where people still do what you ask w/o a whole lot of "am I being detained".

I gave my last class this past weekend... tired of dealing with people... even in the training industry, people will piss you off.

Due to the political climate over the past ten to fifteen years, a lot of level-headed and experienced people have left LE for various reasons... some because of the "no excuses" attitudes displayed in this thread where perfect human behavior in all incidents and circumstances is an absolute must with ALL the responsibility for bad outcomes lying at an officer's feet. It's simply not realistic.

How's that working out?

There are stone cold FU's by police every day... plenty of straight forward cut and dry things to hang your hat on and call for a person's @ss on a platter... like the guy who unsuccessfully tried to Taze a guy and then shot him multiple times in the back when he ran. But people now days will take anything they can get... grey, muddy, convoluted, it doesn't matter, we demand perfect thought processes at all times by LEO's under all conditions no matter who or what the situation.

Kind of a tall order no?

Societies lust for perfect human performance under any and all circumstances will never be satisfied. Anyone in LE with half a brain sees this, and as I tell my people constantly, we are all just one call away from being the next YouTube sensation. Small town, big town, doesn't matter as social media has opened up all areas... what was once believed to be a big city problem is no more. Batter up... who's next I say. Thus many leave LE shortly after getting a taste of the job and the murky circumstances in which the job is performed.

It's been a good ride for me but the dynamics of the job have changed in a negative way. Honestly, I talked my son out of leaving the AF and coming to work for us despite our agency is still one of the good ones.

I do look forward to pulling the plug and no longer having to leave my world to enter my "working world" where I live my life twelve hours at a time... how sweet it will be I'm sure.

may the angel of the Lord watch over you

 

[Jester896]

Sheriff's Dept...OPEN THE DOOR..is just a suggestion.
There are a few things that catch my eye watching the BC footage
He listened for sounds when he arrived
He was close enough to smell the crack
Maybe he should have followed Bowhntr6pt's guidance...leave
When the door opened...
I didn't see where the bugger hook was...not that it mattered.. I guess.
How many times did the officer say step back...at least one. I lost sight after that
What happened between step back...and draw/fire?
Officer safety was... I'm sure... strongly on his mind
He didn't say... it is over there... until after shots were fired

i go to the door with one in my hand...if I heard... Sheriff's Dept...OPEN THE DOOR...
i strongly believe a majority of that conversation would have been through the door.

I support LE
I also support my Constitutional Rights
Tragic

 

[chef_josh]

After watching the body camera footage, it’s impossible for me to believe he didn’t know it was the sheriff’s dept. The officer’s camera even picks up the sound of them talking and the word “police” after he knocks the first time.

It’s not illegal to answer the door with a gun in your hand, even for cops, just like it’s not illegal to play with a hairdryer in the bathtub. The expected result is relatively obvious. We all know how much I hate the ATF, and if they ever show up here, I won’t be answering the door, unless they announce they have a warrant, at which time I won’t be holding a firearm.

Let me preface my next statement with “because he could” is not a sufficient reason to exercise deadly force, and I understand that. However, he could have fired in way less time than the officer could have even reacted to reach for his gun, literally 1/100th of a second. Maybe he would’ve and the headlines would be different, we don’t know.

What we do know is the officer announced he was with the sheriff’s dept 2x very loudly, he WAS at the correct apartment (1401 is clearly visible on the body cam footage), and the man who lost his life was clearly holding an unholstered firearm.

I’m not here to necessarily argue the cops were right and the guy deserved it, but I live my life by extreme ownership and try not to expect standards from others I’m unable to uphold. I would have shot the guy if I was the cop, but hey, I also wouldn’t be a cop in 2024 for any amount of money.

 

[Welldoya]

“People justifiably fear the police and the police justifiably fear the people.”

This right here says it all. With all that’s going on in the world today cops are understandably nervous. I would be. Heck, cops are getting executed just sitting in their cruiser.
Then again, if someone is pounding on my door, I’m going to have a gun in my hand. Anybody can yell “Police”.
It’s an unfortunate situation.

 

[Bodhisattva]

“People justifiably fear the police and the police justifiably fear the people.”

This right here says it all. With all that’s going on in the world today cops are understandably nervous. I would be. Heck, cops are getting executed just sitting in their cruiser.
Then again, if someone is pounding on my door, I’m going to have a gun in my hand. Anybody can yell “Police”.
It’s an unfortunate situation.

Yes. Anyone can say they are the police when banging on a door.

 

[MarkJ]

<Snip>

What we do know is the officer announced he was with the sheriff’s dept 2x very loudly, he WAS at the correct apartment (1401 is clearly visible on the body cam footage), and the man who lost his life was clearly holding an unholstered firearm.

<snip>

Appreciate your full post but wanted to remark on this bit.

Looking at this through the lens of my life experiences I see an undisciplined encounter from the Sheriff and unloading 6 rounds that fast was panic and fear and not training and reaction.

1) Never stand square in front of a door when it could open revealing an enemy combatant. The Sheriff should have been standing to the right side of the door mostly protected by a what looks to be a concrete block wall when he knocked and announced. He would have seen the handgun that was in the right hand of the occupant when the door opened and could have drawn his weapon and directed the man to drop the gun from relatively safe cover without discharging his weapon.

2) At some point during the 6 round unload from the Sheriff the occupant dropped the gun, was it after the first round? Second round? I almost guarantee that Sheriff couldn't tell you and that is because his SA was crap and he was in full on panic/fear mode.

3) I think if this Sheriff had quality training this encounter would have had a different outcome. Both the acorn cop and this Sheriff were on the same force from what I've read and in my opinion both had terrible operational stress control. How is that PD preparing their officers for encounters like this?

 

[Bodhisattva]

Appreciate your full post but wanted to remark on this bit.

Looking at this through the lens of my life experiences I see an undisciplined encounter from the Sheriff and unloading 6 rounds that fast was panic and fear and not training and reaction.

1) Never stand square in front of a door when it could open revealing an enemy combatant. The Sheriff should have been standing to the right side of the door mostly protected by a what looks to be a concrete block wall when he knocked and announced. He would have seen the handgun that was in the right hand of the occupant when the door opened and could have drawn his weapon and directed the man to drop the gun from relatively safe cover without discharging his weapon.

2) At some point during the 6 round unload from the Sheriff the occupant dropped the gun, was it after the first round? Second round? I almost guarantee that Sheriff couldn't tell you and that is because his SA was crap and he was in full on panic/fear mode.

3) I think if this Sheriff had quality training this encounter would have had a different outcome. Both the acorn cop and this Sheriff were on the same force from what I've read and in my opinion both had terrible operational stress control. How is that PD preparing their officers for encounters like this?

Good points. I see you’re a fellow citizen of mine in Baldwin county.
This scenario could easily have played out right here too.
Still lots of unanswered questions lingering… who called 911 and what said by whom and what was law enforcement told. We can go on and on for a while with this one.

 

[IronBeard]

Pretty much what I expected. The divide widens as the apologists persist. Perception = reality, and words on a forum will not change perceptions.

 

[Carl]

Can’t imagine ever opening the door for anyone I haven’t identified and if it’s the cops I definitely won’t be holding a gun if I open it. Didn’t read the article I may be missing something.

They certainly go out of their way to make sure everyone knows this was a BLACK airman though. That means it’s super serious as opposed to NON-BLACKS murdered by police.

 

[Bodhisattva]

Can’t imagine ever opening the door for anyone I haven’t identified and if it’s the cops I definitely won’t be holding a gun if I open it. Didn’t read the article I may be missing something.

They certainly go out of their way to make sure everyone knows this was a BLACK airman though. That means it’s super serious as opposed to NON-BLACKS murdered by police.

It’s not against the law to not answer your door.

And yes, I have to wonder, even as a civilian, if the officer could have done anything different.
Listen, and then leave if he heard no commotion?
Have the front office of the complex call the guy?
Ask the airman to drop the gun?
Get on with the 911 caller ?
Get some history on the guy as he’s knocking on the door?
There was only the airman in his apartment. He was on the phone with his GF. It was a domestic disturbance call.
Someone got their info wrong, and in this case it cost the man his life.

He will probably be cleared since the airman had a gun, which means some of these issues will likely not ever be addressed. Sad state of modern policing. Does law enforcement learn from its mistakes even if cleared, and integrate them into training? I have to wonder.

 

[Snake-Eyes]

Just go to Fort Walton Beach, dial 911, and tell them there’s a black acorn with a gun in the park. The entire sheriff’s department will then show up and open fire on each other’s vehicles.

 

[Jester896]

I can see it could sound like that from the outside of the Apt. I see so many having a face time conversation at very loud levels in public. Some have been so loud in my business that I have asked them to take that outside or hang up. I wonder how loud it would be or what it could sound like from the outside of the Apt. There never were 2 in there just people talking on the phone

 

[Carl]

It’s not against the law to not answer your door.

And yes, I have to wonder, even as a civilian, if the officer could have done anything different.
Listen, and then leave if he heard no commotion?
Have the front office of the complex call the guy?
Ask the airman to drop the gun?
Get on with the 911 caller ?
Get some history on the guy as he’s knocking on the door?
There was only the airman in his apartment. He was on the phone with his GF. It was a domestic disturbance call.
Someone got their info wrong, and in this case it cost the man his life.

He will probably be cleared since the airman had a gun, which means some of these issues will likely not ever be addressed. Sad state of modern policing. Does law enforcement learn from its mistakes even if cleared, and integrate them into training? I have to wonder.

I didn't say that I think its against the law to not open the door for police. Quite the opposite and I agree with what you said. Look at this one at about 1:20, makes me sick.

It started as a noise complaint. It ended in another fatal Phoenix police shooting

The episode is one in a string of Phoenix police shootings and has reignited criticism from advocates.

www.azcentral.com

 

[IronBeard]

Can’t imagine ever opening the door for anyone I haven’t identified and if it’s the cops I definitely won’t be holding a gun if I open it. Didn’t read the article I may be missing something.

They certainly go out of their way to make sure everyone knows this was a BLACK airman though. That means it’s super serious as opposed to NON-BLACKS murdered by police.

I don't care for the excessive jump to racism. IMO, that's cheap, unwarranted at this time, and distracting.

Based on information available to me, he was on an internet call. There could be audio/video from another angle if the call was stored somehow(?). Will be interesting to see what comes out of that, plus the words of the person on the other end of the call. Holding out for an independent, unbiased, investigation, but expecting the press release we've all heard/seen before.

 

[IronBeard]

Just go to Fort Walton Beach, dial 911, and tell them there’s a black acorn with a gun in the park. The entire sheriff’s department will then show up and open fire on each other’s vehicles.

Once is an anomaly. Twice is coincidence. Three times and you gotta start thinking pattern/trend. The post incident words of the Okaloosa sheriff could be a boiler plate statement, or deflection/defensiveness. What else might have already happened that avoided public notice/release? Will be watching for a third incident, 'cause my spidey sense says there's something more here.

 

[MarkJ]

Once is an anomaly. Twice is coincidence. Three times and you gotta start thinking pattern/trend. The post incident words of the Okaloosa sheriff could be a boiler plate statement, or deflection/defensiveness. What else might have already happened that avoided public notice/release? Will be watching for a third incident, 'cause my spidey sense says there's something more here.

With all due respect, when there is loss of life involved the public cant wait for a third event to occur. One time is too many.

Whatever way this footage is dissected or spun to arrive at a justifiable outcome, it's just not possible to overcome the following:

The weapon was not pointed at the Sheriff and the occupant complied with both directives the Sheriff shouted.

"Open the Door"
"Back up"

This Airman should not be dead right now.

 

[IronBeard]

With all due respect, when there is loss of life involved the public cant wait for a third event to occur. One time is too many.

Whatever way this footage is dissected or spun to arrive at a justifiable outcome, it's just not possible to overcome the following:

The weapon was not pointed at the Sheriff and the occupant complied with both directives the Sheriff shouted.

"Open the Door"
"Back up"

This Airman should not be dead right now.

Brutha, I totally agree with you.

You have the dubious honor of responding to my final attempt at giving the other side a chance. Three strikes and, you're out.

Personal attempts at engaging in "meaningful conversation," and or extending "olive branches" to paid government enforcement agents with hope of acheiving a joint partnership/solution we can all live in Liberty have 99% been abandoned. Responses to my attempts to date have ranged from bring metaphorically/verbally slapped away, gazes diverted to the floor, and mutiple "don't cares." FWIW, I respect and factor in the latter most.

I will not be buying any more meals. Me and my CCW will damn sure not be pulling/running/walking over to offer any assistance at the risk of being physically abused/shot/killed for same.

Been into and out of a lot worse circumstances/situations than goes down in these small town events. I'll be OK, and I don't have to avoid my own eyes when I encounter a mirror.