What ever happened to the ,357 Mag?

[Midnight son]

Yesterday I packed up my 4" k-frame model 66 .357 for deer camp this weekend.

Safariland high and tight holster. 12 rounds 125 jsp for concealment purposes on the trip. 12 rounds 180 hard cast while hunting. 30 rounds .38 special in case someone wants to try it out. 12 rounds handloaded rat shot for around the camphouse.....we got rats!

It's the most versatile handgun I own. If I had to have only one this would be it.

 

[Grits1/5]

Okay then, let's begin with the start of the demise of the .357. Along came the S&W Model 39, and then some high octane Navy Boy's adapted it to a double stack mag, and suddenly the LEO Arms Race was on. It wasn't until a certain Bank Robbery that the FBI determined that the 9 mm in a double stacked sidearm wasn't good enough. Enter the 10 mm (although not a Bren). But it seems that all this tail chasing is circling back to the Original 9 mm Double Stack used by those High Octane Navy Boy's. Then Uncle Sam stepped in with more bean counters and HK got the High Octane contract and MK 23's appeared. To large, to cumbersome, not worthy. Let's turn to Sig, in the mean time Big Green is taking on the Beretta, and all the Academy Folks in ACU's are getting issued AR's in pistol Calibers. Needless to say that Special Ops needs a .45 ACP sidearm, so Uncle Sam once again diverges from America's LE Agencies. But the good folks in Georgia, (Home of American Glocks) determine that their PD needs the Glock Model 21SF. Need I say more Let the good times roll. History, JMHO. Probably not that far from actual occurrences since I lived it. But YMMV. (Wish SAWMAN was still with US. bet a lot of youngsters are banging their goggle buttons trying to keep up!). Sometimes the Old and experienced have an edge on the young bucks. LOL.

As others mentioned, I think the main reason the caliber and platform change is because of vast improvements in the performance of modern 9mm ammunition. Modern 9mm hollow points are very effective, negating the need for the increased case/powder size of the .357. The military went back to .45 for awhile because they can’t/don’t use hollow point handgun rounds. And for suppressed/subsonic, .45 has the advantage. But 9mm HP is the best handgun round for most situations. Even .40 and .357 sig are kinda extinct now.
In my opinion, revolvers in .38/357 have edge for reliability when concealed carry, especially if fired through a jacket pocket. And less likely to jam perhaps. For very select situations, where you wouldn’t want your empty brass on the scene, I guess they would also have an advantage ‍

 

[J pace]

If you intend to spray and pray by all means carry the 9, If you intend to remain calm and place your shots Round count is not your priority.

 

[RHINOWSO]

If you intend to spray and pray by all means carry the 9, If you intend to remain calm and place your shots Round count is not your priority.

 

[M118LR]

As others mentioned, I think the main reason the caliber and platform change is because of vast improvements in the performance of modern 9mm ammunition. Modern 9mm hollow points are very effective, negating the need for the increased case/powder size of the .357. The military went back to .45 for awhile because they can’t/don’t use hollow point handgun rounds. And for suppressed/subsonic, .45 has the advantage. But 9mm HP is the best handgun round for most situations. Even .40 and .357 sig are kinda extinct now.
In my opinion, revolvers in .38/357 have edge for reliability when concealed carry, especially if fired through a jacket pocket. And less likely to jam perhaps. For very select situations, where you wouldn’t want your empty brass on the scene, I guess they would also have an advantage ‍

I think folks are underplaying how big an influence the FBI has on other LE Agencies. Since the FBI determined that revolvers and Double stacked 9 mm didn't have the needed firepower to bring the 1986 Miami Bank Robbery to an end, and 9 mm Hollow points were FBI issued ammo. As so may LE Agencies follow the FBI's lead, nothing less than .40 S&W should be considered adequate. If you think the FBI doesn't influence just search the internet to find out which rounds pass the FBI Ballistic Jelly tests. It's almost a standard for what works and won't work in self defense. The 1986 Miami Bank Robbery was the definite turning point in the demise of both Revolvers and 9 mm use by LE Agencies, and it was the FBI's own review that initiated 10 mm and eventually .40 S&W loadings to become commonplace in LE circles. Perhaps more than just my humble opinion?

 

[capt.joe]

Not to get too far off topic, but S&W just came out with an X frame 4.5 lb 7 shot 350 legend.

 

[capt.joe]

did you get the mortgage paid off yet from the first box of ammo?

I bought all the reloading goodies and 500 rounds of starline brass a few yrs ago

 

[M118LR]

I bought all the reloading goodies and 500 rounds of starline brass a few yrs ago

Think there is another thread about best 9 mm ammo from short barreled pistols?

 

[RHINOWSO]

I think folks are underplaying how big an influence the FBI has on other LE Agencies. Since the FBI determined that revolvers and Double stacked 9 mm didn't have the needed firepower to bring the 1986 Miami Bank Robbery to an end, and 9 mm Hollow points were FBI issued ammo. As so may LE Agencies follow the FBI's lead, nothing less than .40 S&W should be considered adequate. If you think the FBI doesn't influence just search the internet to find out which rounds pass the FBI Ballistic Jelly tests. It's almost a standard for what works and won't work in self defense. The 1986 Miami Bank Robbery was the definite turning point in the demise of both Revolvers and 9 mm use by LE Agencies, and it was the FBI's own review that initiated 10 mm and eventually .40 S&W loadings to become commonplace in LE circles. Perhaps more than just my humble opinion?

You realize that is quite dated information and a bunch of LEs have gone away from FoTay back to 9MM, right?

Hard to tell sometimes...

 

[RackinRay]

Alive and well in my eyes, as I have two revolvers (1 a Ruger LCRX for concealed carry) and a Rossi Triple Black that make a fine set of dual caliber weapons, and I have the Lee die set to field load.

Such a die was my entry into reloading in the 70's while stationed in Hawaii. I will always have 357s around.

 

[TK5o]

You realize that is quite dated information and a bunch of LEs have gone away from FoTay back to 9MM, right?

Hard to tell sometimes...

Correct. Several local agencies have dropped the .40 cal glock and gone with the 9mm p320. That is after the FBI has gone back to 9mm themselves

 

[Bowhntr6pt]

The Miami shootout was a complete cluster...

Poor situational awareness, poor preparation, under estimation of the enemy, long guns vs. hand guns/SG's, etc.

Rinse and repeat years later with the North Hollywood shootout.

I am known to dismount my patrol vehicle on high-risk/potential risk calls with my AR15 (SBR) slung across my back... when the "Rambo" comments surface, I remind them of the above two incidents, usually ends the smarta## remarks.

Nothing wrong with a 9mm today, as already mentioned, ammo technology has improved. I've seen the end results of OIS's with .40 and 9mm... dead is dead... no difference. I've been to my fair share of shooting s and suicides to appreciate current bullet/ammo technology and performance.

We switched back to 9mm years ago with negative comments from the ill-informed... a couple shootings later, those comments are non-existent.

I do love my 4" S&W 586 and deeply regret selling my 6" S&W 686.

 

[M118LR]

It was the .40 S&W offerings that tarnished Glocks stellar reputation. While many agencies switched to .40, the same 9 mm loads used during both incidents above still remained as authorized options. When your Department switched back to 9 mm did they change the load authorized, or expand authorization to include new ammo loadings? .38 Special+ p was used in .357 Mag sidearms.

 

[RHINOWSO]

Yeah modern Federal HST / Speer Gold Dots / etc 9MM ammo is good to go.

Is 125gr / 158gr full house 357 'better'? Of course, but you are limited to maybe 8 shots in a modern revolver, in a much larger size / weight compared to a modern semi-auto.

Also, your sight options are limited, you have no rail for 'those youngsters new fangled lights and stuff' and no modern RDS options for 'those do-hickeys'.

Sure, someone will post a photo of a revolver 'racegun' with a RDS... no $hit sherlock, with money and time everything is possible. Now find me a duty or concealment holster for it... <crickets, crickets>

Is 357 / 38 dead? Heck no. But for a vast majority (Military, LEO, civies), 9MM is cheaper to buy (weapon and ammo), easier to configure (light, RDS, holster options), easier shoot (I like shooting 357 MAG, but plenty of shooters get to flinching after the first shot), and once you start downloading from the full house rounds, the reason for shooting it (ballistic advantage) is gone.

My S&W M66-3 4" no lock is a great gun, even better that I bought it for $350 a decade ago in great shape. 340PD is a great pocket / ankle gun, but I've fired the only 357mags I'll ever fire out of that thing.

 

[M118LR]

Better have a long barreled nine.

 

[RackinRay]

Better have a long barreled nine.

How long? 10.5" like my PPS-43C Radom, or 16" Olympic Arms M.F.R. 9MM?

 

[Grits1/5]

I think folks are underplaying how big an influence the FBI has on other LE Agencies. Since the FBI determined that revolvers and Double stacked 9 mm didn't have the needed firepower to bring the 1986 Miami Bank Robbery to an end, and 9 mm Hollow points were FBI issued ammo. As so may LE Agencies follow the FBI's lead, nothing less than .40 S&W should be considered adequate. If you think the FBI doesn't influence just search the internet to find out which rounds pass the FBI Ballistic Jelly tests. It's almost a standard for what works and won't work in self defense. The 1986 Miami Bank Robbery was the definite turning point in the demise of both Revolvers and 9 mm use by LE Agencies, and it was the FBI's own review that initiated 10 mm and eventually .40 S&W loadings to become commonplace in LE circles. Perhaps more than just my humble opinion?

I definitely agree with the FBI influence and the 1986 bank robbery. Learning from that and similar circumstances, targets have a higher chance of wearing level 3 or higher plates, which makes rifle caliber weapons more desirable. Even with ammunition technology advances, armor has advanced more and become more prevalent. So traditional handgun rounds, whether 9mm or 357 are less likely to be as effective against armored threats.

 

[M118LR]

9 mm HST 20 rounds $37, 9 mm Gold Dot 20 rounds $37, Gold Dot .357 20 rounds $37. Looks like they all cost about the same to me?

Shop products in Personal Defense HST today | Federal Premium

Federal Ammunition

www.federalpremium.com

Shop products in Gold Dot today | Speer Ammunition

Speer Ammo

www.speer.com

Speer Gold Dot Short Barrel 357 Mag Ammo 135 Grain Bonded Jacketed

Speer Gold Dot Short Barrel Ammunition is loaded with bonded core bullets and designed for home defense and personal protection. It is designed to work...

www.midwayusa.com

Long enough to ensure actual velocity advertised. Say Standard Berretta Mil-spec 5 inches. Depending on the sidearm + P may not be choice. (MNF recommended.)

 

[sebastiandangerfield]

I’ll give mine up when they pry my cold, dead fingers off of them…..

 

[RHINOWSO]

9 mm HST 20 rounds $37, 9 mm Gold Dot 20 rounds $37, Gold Dot .357 20 rounds $37. Looks like they all cost about the same to me?

Only fudds buy 20rd boxes of defensive ammo. 50rd boxes FTW.

And one of the biggest issues with 357MAG Speer JHPs the last couple of years been availability.