SBR questiion/information??

[ted-hurst]

I have an AR lower and can't decide whether to go with a carbine length upper or an 11" SBR upper. My questions are:

1. I know there is a $200 tax stamp, where do I go to fill out paperwork or who do I see?

2. Can I purchase the SBR upper before I get approval and wait until approval comes back before install?

3. If I sell this setup later what extra steps do I have to go through?

Anything else I've missed please educate me, I don't want to make a mistake because it'll get costly.

Thanks
Ted

 

[flyandscuba]

Answers:

1. The ATF website has the necessary forms available for download -- or you can request that they be mailed to you.

2. The 11" Upper can be used on either a pistol lower or a rifle lower that will be SBR'd. Therefore, you can purchase the upper before submitting the paper work. However, I encourage you NOT to do so, unless you have a pistol lower to use it on. If you only have a rifle -- or a rifle lower -- the mere possession of the upper and lower in the same household without the tax stamp can constitute "constructive intent" or "constructive possession" which can be viewed as a violation of Federal law.

3. If you sell the SBR as a firearm -- you can do so individual - to -individual (private sale, no dealer required) in Florida, but the buyer must get the tax stamp before you physically deliver the firearm to them.

I guess the question that I would ask myself would be: Is there really any benefit to having an 11" upper on your rifle over a 16" upper? The ballistic performance will suffer with the shorter barrel. Personally, with the proper stock and sling -- I can handle a 16" upper on a rifle as easily in clearing interior rooms as I could with the 11" upper.

 

[ted-hurst]

Thanks Scuba, been toying with the idea. I just wanted to know the extra paperwork and time required for the SBR. After reading the ATF Form I'll probably go with the 16" upper.

Thanks
Ted

 

[wildrider666]

Scuba is on the money. If your going to build a SBR: plan it out. List your parts by manufacture/part number and submit it to ATF for tech review BEFORE YOU BUY. REMEMBER WITH ATF its YOUR butt on the line. READ everything that pertains to what your doing and what you will have when your complete. Same cgose for my comments! You will also have to get approval signature fro the local LE, PA before you can even put in the paperwork. You $ goes with the application. The waiting period is six months +- for the stamp. Read the restrictions on NFA weapons. You can't take it out of state with notifying ATF and the STATE where you intend to take it. Some states will not let you enter with a NFA weapon so on a long trip you may have to go around a state. If you want to sell a transfer is only $5. but you still have the long wait. You also need to think about what happens to it if you "expire" special handling is req. NFA weapons must be in you physical possession or locked up in a manner that no one will have access. so if you wife know the safe combo to get her sparkles: you can not store the NFA weapon there until the combo is changes and NO ONE else has the combo. When you build a NFA Weapon you also have to have your name and address stamped or engraved on it.
If you want short go with a SIGP556SWAT, Love mine. If you want to do NFA stuff buy a silencer that can wouk on several of your firearms. Take a look at the SWR octane 9HD as a example.
Good luck with the project
WR

 

[ilintner]

A form 1 is not a huge ordeal, get your lower, file your form 1, get your engraving done, order your upper. I have several, and at first I was intimidated by the process, but it really is something every gun nut needs to own.



You can always swap uppers and calibers around too, as long as you keep the original configuration that you registered it in.
I have a 4" .22LR upper, and a 10.5" 556 upper that I swap around on my lower, will add more in the future and probably at least one more SBR lower to the mix.

 

[ilintner]

Gravity had posted some good info in here for you last night that we lost, trying to figure out how to restore it.

 

[Bean Counter]

Ok, let the beatings begin. My stupid question. What if you got the AK in pistol form and put a but stock on it? Does it have to be registered then? All it is is a SBR with a pistol grip. What am I missing?

 

[ilintner]

To add a stock to a pistol, you have to submit a form 1. An rifle with a barrel shorter than 16 inches is an SBR and needs to be registered prior to your "manufacturing" it. Lots of people use factory pistols for SBR builds, I have a Sig 556 pistol that I SBR'd, filed my form, paid my fee, adding my engraving, received my approved form and added a butt stock to it.

 

[flyandscuba]

Ok, let the beatings begin. My stupid question. What if you got the AK in pistol form and put a but stock on it? Does it have to be registered then? All it is is a SBR with a pistol grip. What am I missing?

Yep, if you did that -- you "manufactured" an unregistered SBR - an NFA item - and committed a felony... It would require a Form 1 and $200 tax stamp prior to assembly in order to be legal.

 

[wildrider666]

ATF has prosecuted cases where the "defendant" had all the "parts" to assemble a NFA weapon and won! They did not have to prove that is was actually assembled in that fashion because there was no other application for the "parts" present. You are basically okay if you have two complete firearms even if the parts of those weapons can be interchanged and made into a NFA weapon(s). ATF would need to prove you actually assembled them into NFA weapons (whats in your zombie killer photo albums?). Lets stretch this a little bit. If you had an AR with a add on rail attached FWD vertical pistol grip, Sold the AR and kept the grip. You also have a handgun with a lower rail and no other long gun with a lower rail. As you presently have no other application (as designed) for the pistol grip, ATF could opinion that the grip could be used on the pistol making it a NFA "Any other weapon": Adding a fore grip to a handgun. An interest read on this handgun/rifle parts interchangeability is U.S. Vs Thompson Center Fire. Of special note this involved SINGLE SHOT FIREARMS! Even if you prove to be right the financial cost of litigation may put you in the poor house. Don't expect the NRA to jump in either. The CFR/NFA is very clear: if you have the parts readable available to assemble a NFA weapon, YOU HAVE a NFA weapon!!! So again, if you have a complete AR and buy a (delete: pistol lower or) pistol upper (and these parts are interchangeable) BEFORE: you get your NFA Stamp: you could be in trouble.
WR

WR

 

[ksenter]

So again, if you have a complete AR and buy a pistol lower or pistol upper (and these parts are interchangeable) BEFORE: you get your NFA Stamp: you could be in trouble.
WR

WR

wrong. You can purchase a pistol lower, or any lower with intent to create a pistol with no wrong doing. The rest of your post was pretty good up until your last sentence.

 

[Little Jack]

To add a stock to a pistol, you have to submit a form 1. An rifle with a barrel shorter than 16 inches is an SBR and needs to be registered prior to your "manufacturing" it. Lots of people use factory pistols for SBR builds, I have a Sig 556 pistol that I SBR'd, filed my form, paid my fee, adding my engraving, received my approved form and added a butt stock to it.

If you don't mind my asking, how/where did you get your engraving done? Local? Pricing?

 

[ilintner]

If you don't mind my asking, how/where did you get your engraving done? Local? Pricing?

Sure,

I have used award masters for all of my engraving.

5353 North Palafox Street Pensacola, FL 32505
(850) 438-2124

They are super cool about it, let you make an appointment and accompany your items to the back so you can work directly with the engraver. They aren't scared of guns, or gun parts and have been very very careful with everything I have brought in to them, I have a lot of money wrapped up in my Benelli M4 Short Barreled Shotguns and the way he handled everything put me at ease.

The charge just goes by the number of letters etc. I was charged ~15 dollars the last time for each item. With the amount of work the guy did, it was a real bargain, he did the engraving on the bottom of my billet lower's trigger guard which took a lot of extra time and set up, no extra charge though.

 

[Mullet Hunter]

I'll second award masters they are great to work with, they've also been around forever. And you are right they love to engrave guns, they also blast right through the tender on a glock.....

 

[Little Jack]

Tender on a glock?

Not getting that one.

 

[Mullet Hunter]

Tenifer...

 

[Little Jack]

Thanks. Makes much more sense.

 

[Little Jack]

Just talked to Award Masters. $30 mininum for engraving. Initially I was told there would be a $20 'rush' fee but I asked if I could setup an appointment and they said they could. Will update when I get the engraving done.

 

[Gravity3694]

+1 for Award Masters. They took the job with no reservations when every other award shop in town refused (on grounds of aluminum damaging tooling).

Award Masters did a decent job that got the job done, but next time I think I'll try Orion Arms or Indent engraving. Award Master's engraving was a little shallow for my tastes. I think Award Masters uses a mechanical scribe tool. I know Jays guns does engraving, but they use acid etching, which although better does cost more.

I forgot how much they charged me, but it was less than $20 IIRC. There is a minimum fee and after that it's a certain cost per letter. This is one reason I recommend making your trust name short if you go that route among others.

On a side note, ilintner is your Benelli M4 SBS factory? I have an M4 and was curious about the SBS versions.

 

[ilintner]

+1 for Award Masters. They took the job with no reservations when every other award shop in town refused (on grounds of aluminum damaging tooling).

Award Masters did a decent job that got the job done, but next time I think I'll try Orion Arms or Indent engraving. Award Master's engraving was a little shallow for my tastes. I think Award Masters uses a mechanical scribe tool. I know Jays guns does engraving, but they use acid etching, which although better does cost more.

I forgot how much they charged me, but it was less than $20 IIRC. There is a minimum fee and after that it's a certain cost per letter. This is one reason I recommend making your trust name short if you go that route among others.

On a side note, ilintner is your Benelli M4 SBS factory? I have an M4 and was curious about the SBS versions.

Not factory, I got one of the 14" barrels on gunbroker a while back when Botach got a dozen of them and I put in my form 1 and SBS'd it.

I was pretty bummed when I walked into jay's and saw the factory 14" barrel hanging there for significantly less than I paid. Also could have went the factory SBS route and saved a good bit, they are just tough to come by.

The gun is awesome, nice and short. I have a collapsible stock on it to shorten it up even further. I also have a Benelli M1S90 Factory 14" gun, they make a bad ass little pair.