Friends 23 yo son got denied handgun purchase, wants father to buy handgun.

[DustyDog]

Of course they interviewed that gun-grabbing advocate POS Chipman. Anyway...

If the OP’s friend’s 23-yr-old son popped “denied” for mental health issues, then it’s an example of databases talking to each other. Good, bad, indifferent: mental health databases are obviously making a mark on the NICS...

Could be that, or maybe he didn't lie on the 4473? Regardless, you brought up another point I've been wanting to make: The medical and psych fields are FULL of leftists, and they use all kinds of tricks to further the "anti-gun" agenda, among others. This is a common theme on MedPage Today, a supposedly legit medical website:

https://www.medpagetoday.com/psychiatry/anxietystress/98203

https://www.medpagetoday.com/opinion/second-opinions/98960

They are always pushing for kids to be brought into the system and put on drugs, thus setting the stage for getting them banned from purchasing. And if the kid ends up doing a mass shooting, all the better, in their minds. The "Generation Rx" movie that I posted earlier is a must-watch... just keep in mind that it was made 15 years ago, so it is ten times worse now.

 

[stage20]

if the father buys the weapon and gives it as a gift its legal,id wrap it up and have a party too
the father having knowledge of his condition and legal situation is going to be liable for anything and everything not a smart move

You are contradicting yourself in this post

 

[DAS HUGH!]

Yes. The only legal way to sell a gun to a felon or insane person is if you didn't know that prior to the sale. It's not my duty to do background checks on private sales. Do I tho? Yes... if I think someone's shady or a total stranger I may ask to see a conceal carry. But that's as far as it goes. If I get weird vibes... I'm out. I just don't do the sale.
The seller only ever commits a crime if he "knowingly" sales, gifts, gives, or however you want to phrase it... a firearm.
But, if he didn't know prior. Then no crime is committed.
That's how I understand the law. I do a little due diligence and use discretion. But I'm not required to.
Besides. The conceal carry license could be his brother's, Dada, cousins, I'm not a cop nor a trained detective.. nor a trained facial ID specialist. So at the end of day, no matter what I do isn't 100% no ways.


Now. I thought since the kid was 18 he was trying to buy a rifle. And got denied. I thought pistols was 21 now. I can kinda understand a kid wanting a little hunting rifle. When they immediately want a pistol tho, well... that's red flags just by itself if he is already deemed mentally unfit. Because if we're talking pistols, the dad has lost his mind even entertaining that idea.

 

[Lawdog88]

If the original M.H. treatment was in California (as the 5150 / 5250 numbers indicate), there seems to be a procedure in California Courts to have your right to own / possess a firearm restored, as long the person applies for a certificate in the court that made the adjudication, that required the person to undergo involuntary treatment.

Welf. & Inst. Code § 8100 (a) A person shall not have in his or her possession or under his or her custody or control, or purchase or receive, or attempt to purchase or receive, any firearms whatsoever or any other deadly weapon, if on or after Jan. 1, 1992, he or she has been admitted to a facility and is receiving inpatient treatment and, in the opinion of the attending health professional who is primarily responsible for the patient's treatment of a mental disorder, is a danger to self or others, as specified by Section 5150, 5250, or 5300, even though the patient has consented to that treatment. A person is not subject to the prohibition in this subdivision after he or she is discharged from the facility. Welf. & Inst. Code § 8103 (a)(1) A person who after Oct. 1, 1955, has been adjudicated by a court of any state to be a danger to others as a result of a mental disorder or mental illness, or who has been adjudicated to be a mentally disordered sex offender, shall not purchase or receive, or attempt to purchase or receive, or have in his or her possession, custody, or control a firearm or any other deadly weapon . . . unless . . . there has been issued to the person a certificate by the court of adjudication upon release from treatment or at a later date stating that the person may possess a firearm or any other deadly weapon without endangering others, and the person has not, subsequent to the issuance of the certificate, again been adjudicated by a court to be a danger to others as a result of a mental disorder or mental illness. (Bold, italics emphasis added).

 

[DustyDog]

Yes. The only legal way to sell a gun to a felon or insane person is if you didn't know that prior to the sale. It's not my duty to do background checks on private sales. Do I tho? Yes... if I think someone's shady or a total stranger I may ask to see a conceal carry. But that's as far as it goes. If I get weird vibes... I'm out. I just don't do the sale.
The seller over ever commits a crime if he "knowingly" sales, gifts, gives, or however you want to phrase it... a firearm.
But, if he didn't know prior. Then no crime is committed.
That's how I understand the law. I do a little due diligence and use discretion. But I'm not required to.
Besides. The conceal carry license could be his brother's, Dada, cousins, I'm not a cop nor a trained detective.. nor a trained facial ID specialist. So at the end of day, no matter what I do isn't 100% no ways.


Now. I thought since the kid was 18 he was trying to buy a rifle. And got denied. I thought pistols was 21 now. I can kinda understand a kid wanting a little hunting rifle. When they immediately want a pistol tho, well... that's red flags just by itself if he is already deemed mentally unfit. Because if we're talking pistols, the dad has lost his mind even entertaining that idea.

That's my impression, which I have run past a cousin who is high-up in the ATF just for confirmation. As long as you honestly don't know AND you have no obligation to research a private buyer. If they contact you to do a trace later, it would be nice to have some info for them to go on, but you're not required to have any... nothing... zero (note that I'm speaking federally, and "as far as I know", since some states may require some documentation).

You just don't want to sell to criminals if you can help it because, number one, they can just pop you on the spot and take the firearm anyway. This is why I only make deals over-the-phone (I don't make a habit of selling firearms, but I do sell other stuff). I can tell a lot more about someone on a voice call than I can via any type of messaging.

And when I say "high-up", my cousin used to be a right-hand man of the Director, but got tired of flying all over the place all the time. He then became one of three Asst. Special Agents in Charge of the L.A. regional office (not exactly small-time : ), but now is the ATF Liason (i.e., the top guy in-country), working out of the U.S. Embassy compound, in a very consequential country that I shan't name here : )

I've talked to him on the phone, but haven't seen him face-to-face in probably 30 years, so I don't know where he stands politically, but I did see him for the first time in that long when he spoke at a news conference re: a major episode last year : )

 

[DAS HUGH!]

That's my impression, which I have run past a cousin who is high-up in the ATF just for confirmation. As long as you honestly don't know AND you have no obligation to research a private buyer. If they contact you to do a trace later, it would be nice to have some info for them to go on, but you're not required to have any... nothing... zero (note that I'm speaking federally, and "as far as I know", since some states may require some documentation).

You just don't want to sell to criminals if you can help it because, number one, they can just pop you on the spot and take the firearm anyway. This is why I only make deals over-the-phone (I don't make a habit of selling firearms, but I do sell other stuff). I can tell a lot more about someone on a voice call than I can via any type of messaging.

And when I say "high-up", my cousin used to be a right-hand man of the Director, but got tired of flying all over the place all the time. He then became one of three Asst. Special Agents in Charge of the L.A. regional office (not exactly small-time : ), but now is the ATF Liason (i.e., the top guy in-country), working out of the U.S. Embassy compound, in a very consequential country that I shan't name here : )

I've talked to him on the phone, but haven't seen him face-to-face in probably 30 years, so I don't know where he stands politically, but I did see him for the first time in that long when he spoke at a news conference re: a major episode last year : )

Exactly. Just cover you're ass as much as you can just so you can honestly say you went above and beyond to ensure you wasnt selling to a prohibited person. But yeah you don't even have to do that.
Plus conceal carry licenses can be purchased for many years before it expires. Maybe even lifetime cards can be bought. I forget and will have to check. Don't quote me tho. But yeah a person can commit a whole lot of crimes, or also become a whole lot of crazy since the time he or she got the permit. Even get in and out of prison between them getting the permit and meeting you.
So my point is that even seeing or making copies of that permit, even if it's not fake... isn't 100% proof positive that even a card carrier is legit, or a prohibited person.
Nothing is full proof that we as private citizens can do to ensure these things. So in many ways even asking for cards isn't a guarantee.
It's just proof you did at least try.

It's cool you have friends and or family in such high places. I bet he has alot of stories to tell about guns! I just hope he's one of the few good guys in that division. Sounds like he is tho. I'm curious about his politics and how he does things. It would be cool to have a little insight to how things up the chain that high work. It's also nice to have someone like that to differ to and get the real deal answers. Wish I had some family up there. I'd be asking them for all sorts of info... and or a few favors here n there!.... like expediting my dam stamps lol. That would be awesome!

 

[Snake-Eyes]

Ask your cousin WTF is going on with the spineless BS spewing from his workplace.

If I had family working “high up” for that agency, I wouldn't be proud of it, unless that family member was actively working to UN-FUBAR the BS from the inside.

As for the CWL/CCL/CWP whatever, if the person has one and is convicted of a crime, I imagine the license would be seized, but who knows.

 

[DustyDog]

Exactly. Just cover you're ass as much as you can just so you can honestly say you went above and beyond to ensure you wasnt selling to a prohibited person. But yeah you don't even have to do that.
Plus conceal carry licenses can be purchased for many years before it expires. Maybe even lifetime cards can be bought. I forget and will have to check. Don't quote me tho. But yeah a person can commit a whole lot of crimes, or also become a whole lot of crazy since the time he or she got the permit. Even get in and out of prison between them getting the permit and meeting you.
So my point is that even seeing or making copies of that permit, even if it's not fake... isn't 100% proof positive that even a card carrier is legit, or a prohibited person.
Nothing is full proof that we as private citizens can do to ensure these things. So in many ways even asking for cards isn't a guarantee.
It's just proof you did at least try.

It's cool you have friends and or family in such high places. I bet he has alot of stories to tell about guns! I just hope he's one of the few good guys in that division. Sounds like he is tho. I'm curious about his politics and how he does things. It would be cool to have a little insight to how things up the chain that high work. It's also nice to have someone like that to differ to and get the real deal answers. Wish I had some family up there. I'd be asking them for all sorts of info... and or a few favors here n there!.... like expediting my dam stamps lol. That would be awesome!

Oh, he retires in two years (if he survives this "deployment"... it's dangerous, e.g., can't even leave the embassy but in armored vehicles!), but I really can't wait to bend his ear on subjects I cannot broach over-the phone! And yes, I can only hope he's on the "right side" : )

 

[DAS HUGH!]

Ask your cousin WTF is going on with the spineless BS spewing from his workplace.

If I had family working “high up” for that agency, I wouldn't be proud of it, unless that family member was actively working to UN-FUBAR the BS from the inside.

As for the CWL/CCL/CWP whatever, if the person has one and is convicted of a crime, I imagine the license would be seized, but who knows.

Yeah I can only hope they actively make efforts to pull and collect them if they violate the terms and or become a prohibited person. Maybe someone here will know. I've always wondered how that works

 

[DustyDog]

Ask your cousin WTF is going on with the spineless BS spewing from his workplace.

If I had family working “high up” for that agency, I wouldn't be proud of it, unless that family member was actively working to UN-FUBAR the BS from the inside.

As for the CWL/CCL/CWP whatever, if the person has one and is convicted of a crime, I imagine the license would be seized, but who knows.

As I told Hugh, until he retires in two years, there are subjects I obviously can't broach with him over-the-phone, but I will once he's out. I'm telling myself that the reason he was sent where he was with only two years left must be punishment, since it is not where you would want to go on your final stretch, and so maybe he was just not "onboard" with some of the recent B.S. that they were doing here. Or maybe he chose to go there to get away from what they are doing here... that would be pretty heroic.

That's what I'm hoping is the case. If he was a "team player", he would be coasting home in D.C right now.

 

[DustyDog]

Yeah I can only hope they actively make efforts to pull and collect them if they violate the terms and or become a prohibited person. Maybe someone here will know. I've always wondered how that works

I think in Cali they now actively try to seize guns from those who have become prohibited after-the-fact:

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/crime/california-agents-went-to-retrieve-one-gun-from-a-prohibited-person-they-uncovered-a-hoard-of-illegal-weapons/ar-AA17LU8u

 

[stage20]

Page 8 and it's still illegal.

 

[DustyDog]

Page 7 and it's still illegal.

Unless you give it to him, gift-wrapped, at a party : )

 

[seandizzie]

 

[DustyDog]

View attachment 213791

As I've said elsewhere, and hell, maybe I've already said here, but:

"IF ONLY they were so willing to trample the "rights" of gang members... and illegal aliens... and cartel members... RUNNING AMOK in most big cities as they are willing to trample the rights of the LAW-ABIDING!"

 

[TK5o]

If he is only 18. Didnt Fl law change to all gun sales must be 21 or older?

 

[DustyDog]

If he is only 18. Didnt Fl law change to all gun sales must be 21 or older?

If I understand correctly, he's 23...

 

[DustyDog]

"IF ONLY they were so willing to trample the "rights" of gang members... and illegal aliens... and cartel members... RUNNING AMOK in most big cities as they are willing to trample the rights of the LAW-ABIDING!"

Well, well, AS I SAID YESTERDAY^^^

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/nebraska-sheriff-stunned-as-migrants-allegedly-kill-bald-eagle-for-dinner-but-feds-pass-on-charging-them/ar-AA18hMl5

 

[big jon]

You are contradicting yourself in this post

No Im not

 

[Rebel_Rider1969]

Well, well, AS I SAID YESTERDAY^^^

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/nebraska-sheriff-stunned-as-migrants-allegedly-kill-bald-eagle-for-dinner-but-feds-pass-on-charging-them/ar-AA18hMl5

They've been removed from the endangered list. Just another sky chicken.