ATF no knock warrant

[Bowhntr6pt]

So you're willing to assume the guy is guilty of knowingly selling 6 guns to people that aren't legally able to buy guns out of 142 that he bought/sold that at one point ended up in the commission of a crime?

No due process, no trial discovery, apparently not even enough evidence for the Attorney to request an arrest warrant at the same time as the search warrant, nothing concrete... just 'this turd' as a moniker for the guy and now you made the leap to suggest this guy is the reason we have restrictive gun laws?


Just wow...



Fun fact, in 2023 more than 404,024 firearms were used in the commission of a crime. Every single one of them was legally sold at one point in their history.

25,904 of those firearms used in a crime were traced back to a Government Entity, Law Enforcement Agency or Military.

ATF Report

I would suggest those agencies contribute more to our 'restrictive gun laws' than this guy's 6 guns.

Yeah… just wow.

 

[FNHman]

I get the general angst associated with the ATF on a gun forum, but this isn’t the case for me.

You start putting guns out there irresponsibly and I don’t see you as a patriot exercising your rights any more, nor do I see you as a dude that sells a few guns and accidentally sold one to someone who lied about their prohibited status.

What a load of crap, I dont see how any work you may have completed in your entire life of a FED did any good since the system just lets the criminals back out on the street anyway. Shame on your service to the people.

Maybe all FEDS, Lawyers, Judges should be locked up for letting repeat criminals ruin life for all us normal citizens. Why hold the public responsible for what most would consider the best legal transaction they can complete when it ends up in the hand of a felon who probably lied to buy such gun? Why punish the public for such activity from that transaction when the government is hiding the background check system from public use? Why not keep the violent offenders off the streets for good? There are there so many errors in the system and no one is capable of cleaning it up nor does anyone want to because it would be detrimental to MANY MANY PAYCHECKS!!! Rich politicians, judges, the bueuro, police, all worried about their money is driving all this evil at every level. Too scared of their shrinking pocket book if they were to solve any problems.

The constitution is extremely clear "shall not be infringed" it wasn't written to say, can be infringed when someone thinks best.

Show me a recording or tape of this murdered man that PROVES he knowingly sold to a felon. And even if he did, his punishment should only be death if we also serve death on all others equally across the board and that means all involved in "fast and furious" "or the other 25,904 firearms from feds, law enforcement, etc" deserve the same no knock warrant death penalty.

 

[IronBeard]

Terms associated with actions taken. Justification?

 

[ABlaster]

So much to read, and as far as the “shame on your service to the people“ go, you can take that and (Edit: Forgot about Rule 2). At least I’ve stepped up and accepted the responsibility of making the world better place. I’m all about a good discussion but being personally insulting is uncalled for.

It appears some folks on the thread want the trial to happen before the arrest, which isn‘t way it works. Some have pointed out that based on the language of the search warrant, there in fact was probable cause to believe he was committing crimes, and I can’t imagine why they didn’t just go ahead and get an arrest warrant, but the fact remains that it was more likely than not he was doing something illegal.

Also, he seems to be getting a pass on starting a gunfight.

I also think a lot of people see too much of themselves in this guy. Buying and selling guns in FTF’s, nice house, upper class income, ect.

 

[ABlaster]

.

25,904 of those firearms used in a crime were traced back to a Government Entity, Law Enforcement Agency or Military.

ATF Report

I would suggest those agencies contribute more to our 'restrictive gun laws' than this guy's 6 guns.

The linked ATF report tops out at 2021. Where did the 2023 numbers come from? That’s an interesting fact, and one I would love to have the citation for in future discussions with my friends “across the aisle” in the gun debate.

 

[Snake-Eyes]

So much to read, and as far as the “shame on your service to the people“ go, you can take that and fuck yourself in the ass with it. At least I’ve stepped up and accepted the responsibility of making the world better place. I’m all about a good discussion but being personally insulting is uncalled for.

It appears some folks on the thread want the trial to happen before the arrest, which isn‘t way it works. Some have pointed out that based on the language of the search warrant, there in fact was probable cause to believe he was committing crimes, and I can’t imagine why they didn’t just go ahead and get an arrest warrant, but the fact remains that it was more likely than not he was doing something illegal.

Also, he seems to be getting a pass on starting a gunfight.

I also think a lot of people see too much of themselves in this guy. Buying and selling guns in FTF’s, nice house, upper class income, ect.

A trial can’t happen with this guy because the ATF killed him.

The ATF killed him because he had the audacity to shoot at people breaking into his home.

The ATF could’ve arrested him away from his home, away from his arsenal, and away from neighbors and innocents. The ATF instead chose to break into a man’s castle and then posthumously blame him for defending it.


Seems to me like the people who should be f-ing themselves in the a$$ are the ones who think the carte-blanche BATFECES no-knock executions are A-OK if the verbiage in the warrant is incriminating enough.

 

[MarkJ]

So much to read, and as far as the “shame on your service to the people“ go, you can take that and fuck yourself in the ass with it. At least I’ve stepped up and accepted the responsibility of making the world better place. I’m all about a good discussion but being personally insulting is uncalled for.

It appears some folks on the thread want the trial to happen before the arrest, which isn‘t way it works. Some have pointed out that based on the language of the search warrant, there in fact was probable cause to believe he was committing crimes, and I can’t imagine why they didn’t just go ahead and get an arrest warrant, but the fact remains that it was more likely than not he was doing something illegal.

Also, he seems to be getting a pass on starting a gunfight.

I also think a lot of people see too much of themselves in this guy. Buying and selling guns in FTF’s, nice house, upper class income, ect.

I've never discounted or demeaned your service or anyone else's, I'd like to make sure that's clear.

You were absolutely correct on the dates, the report covered the time period between 2017 until 2021 but was it was released to the public on 1/11/2023, I didn't make that clear.


I think the underlying issue with this entire ATF event is that there is a serious lack of evidence to support a lot of the conclusions being drawn.

• There appears to be PC but no arrest warrant., how come?
• We don't have definitive proof the suspect fired the first shot, no video, no testimony, no forensics. Did an agent see the suspect with a gun, shout it out and another agent shot the suspect thinking they were all in danger?
• We don't know who the suspect allegedly sold guns to or if he knowingly sold them to felons. The law says an individual has to knowingly do so in order to be found guilty.

This is the trouble with passing judgment without all the facts, which none of us have. That said, the suspect is still innocent until he is proven guilty no matter what any of us in this forum think. Although now that he's dead it's much less important except to the family...

 

[jettjon]

Putting guns in the hands of bad actors is not the same as us buying and selling firearms. If that’s really the way you look at his activity, then your stance is understandable. Just a guy doing a few sales ending up dead would raise eyebrows anywhere. I see him as a more sinister actor than that, and I suppose that’s the disconnect in opinions.

Allegedly.

 

[ABlaster]

I've never discounted or demeaned your service or anyone else's, I'd like to make sure that's clear.

You were absolutely correct on the dates, the report covered the time period between 2017 until 2021 but was it was released to the public on 1/11/2023, I didn't make that clear.


I think the underlying issue with this entire ATF event is that there is a serious lack of evidence to support a lot of the conclusions being drawn.

• There appears to be PC but no arrest warrant., how come?
• We don't have definitive proof the suspect fired the first shot, no video, no testimony, no forensics. Did an agent see the suspect with a gun, shout it out and another agent shot the suspect thinking they were all in danger?
• We don't know who the suspect allegedly sold guns to or if he knowingly sold them to felons. The law says an individual has to knowingly do so in order to be found guilty.

This is the trouble with passing judgment without all the facts, which none of us have. That said, the suspect is still innocent until he is proven guilty no matter what any of us in this forum think. Although now that he's dead it's much less important except to the family...

No, my comment wasn't directed at you. And, you are absoluely right. We don't have a lot of facts we need. Hell, at this point I still can't find where it says the warrant was served in a "no knock" style and that's an important detail. Just because the entry was forced doesn't mean it wasn't after announcements.

 

[ABlaster]

I really think this thread has run its course for me. I always like to maintain good relations with like-minded people, and Lord knows we have enough enemies without getting bad blood between ourselves, and it's gotten to where it has. I don't see any more I can contribute to nor get out of it, so I'm bowing out of it. Like MarkJ said, we will find out more as time goes on. Maybe this dude watched too many "Sons of Anarchy" or "Breaking Bad" videos or maybe the ATF screwed the pooch (instead of just shooting it).

 

[chibooey]

How would one know anything about the agents invovled unless one was in direct contact with these people? Do you personally know anyone involved?

I think we may have found our local boot licker

Comments like the one above are why I have very few posts in the past 7 years. I learned a lot here and appreciate most of the posts. I have learned a lot from all of the experience from the posters. I have tried to show respect for everyones views but I see at least one doesn't feel the same way.

I spent 22 years in the military, the last 16 of those years as military police. I also retired over 30 years ago so anyone I may have known then is long gone now. You can think what you want to think, I will just see you as the clown who acts like the whiny liberals do, spout the hatred that is inside of you, lump everyone into a generic group because you don't like what they say, blame everyone for all the problems in the world because they don't walk in lockstep with your thinking.

I see it as I see it. Some Feds are jerks, many were normal people just trying to make a living.

You want to get changes made? Well get out and vote for those who think like you and who can make those changes. Run for office yourself to those make the changes instead of spewing hate filled BS on a website.

We are getting closer and closer to a SHTF life because of the idiots running our nation and we need to be ready for when/if that happens, but we also have families that we need to protect now and we cannot protect them 24x7 no matter how hard we want to. We need to depend on law enforcement to minimize the dangers for as long as we can while we continue to prepare for the times that they cannot.

 

[fl57caveman]

there was a better option than a 0500-0600 no knock warrant, but atf elected not to exercise it...

 

[FNHman]

Maybe you don't understand the constitution of the United States. That probably explains why your failing to see what's wrong with the warrant.

The shoot out is irrelevant, the failure of the system started with an investigation that goes against "shall not be infringed".

If one doesn't understand that then there is nothing that will help one see otherwise.

Still waiting on confirmation that the victim knowingly sold to a convicted felon. If that evidence exists they would have shown it by now or already had an arrest warrant which they didnt.

 

[Raven]

they would probably lose their employment if they refused to perform their assigned duties.

Good. Leave the totalitarian bosses toothless while the door kickers with a conscious are free to go work somewhere else

 

[Raven]

Well make up your mind! If you hate people putting guns out there irresponsibly then you have to by default also hate the ATF correct? Do you not know that the ATF has lost/sold/given more guns to criminals than any citizen?

Give him a link to news stories of the actual operations

 

[FNHman]

Opps

 

[FNHman]

So much to read, and as far as the “shame on your service to the people“ go, you can take that and (Edit: Forgot about Rule 2). At least I’ve stepped up and accepted the responsibility of making the world better place. I’m all about a good discussion but being personally insulting is uncalled for.

I see how your complaining about my post but also your stating that you will follow and uphold the rules on this forum and find it ironic that you worked/work for an agency that doesn't follow the constitution. The hypocrisy is duely noted. The mind washing they sent you through must be completely non reversible for that thought process.

 

[ABlaster]

I'll only respond at this time because I don't want there to be any confusion. I didn't work for the ATF, I was a Border Patrol Agent. Ignore function turned on, so don't waste your time typing out crap I won't see.

 

[FLT]

I’m sure it won’t make any difference , but I know AB ,he and I have several mutual friends and they all say he’s a man that they would trust with their lives .
These guys are the real deal , not keyboard commandos , based on their feelings about him and what I’ve seen of him and his dedication to his principles I feel his input on subjects such as this are well worth listening to. In my eyes his input is valuable whether or not you agree with it.

 

[SLTW]

I'll only respond at this time because I don't want there to be any confusion. I didn't work for the ATF, I was a Border Patrol Agent. Ignore function turned on, so don't waste your time typing out crap I won't see.

I feel like a border patrol agent provides 10,000x more value than an ATF agent. I would hold border patrol with the same regards that I look at the coast guard.