ATF no knock warrant

Rational Mind · Mar 23, 2024

Bowhntr6pt said:
Interesting comments here and on other gun boards now that, as Paul Harvey says, "and now... the rest of the story" has surfaced.

I was in my LGS yesterday and this incident came up... all three guys, including the owner, saw nothing wrong with what the guy was doing... I really wasn't surprised. They felt his private sales were well within his Constitutional rights regardless of who was buying.

Some people are "absolutest" when it comes to various Constitutional issues, laws, and other things subject to interpretation.

When the story broke,,, the pitch forks came out immediately for the ATF... now that additional info has been discovered, the mood against the ATF really hasn't been tempered.

I see it this way... some people hate the ATF so much (as there certainly is a lot to hate) they can't see this specific incident for what it was... the same that people in the country hate Trump so much they can see the state of the country for what it is.

When I visited the Custer Battlefield I saw a sticker that read "Custer Had It Coming"... IMO, this guy and the guy I spoke of in our county that got murdered also had it coming.

I really don't care how many guns a person flips for a profit or how many trades one does... but knowingly putting firearms in the hands of criminals is where I draw the line. Like I said in my earlier post... this is exactly why politicians are hammering us with more "laws"... laws that really don't do anything but make it more difficult for the lawful citizen to enjoy firearms and the shooting sports.

but knowingly putting firearms in the hands of criminals is where I draw the line.
Exactly the same reason I disagree with the federal judge allowing illegals to possess firearms. There has to be a line between a Constitutional Absolutist and common sense.

Bowhntr6pt · Mar 23, 2024

chef_josh said:
PS- if you’re gonna carry a truck gun, please don’t be leaving the case in plain view with your Glock and Sig stickers on the back windshield

Every time we get a vehicle burglary call where a firearm is taken, and we get plenty of them, I'd love to throat-punch the victim lol.

FrommerStop · Mar 23, 2024

Rational Mind said:
but knowingly putting firearms in the hands of criminals is where I draw the line.
Exactly the same reason I disagree with the federal judge allowing illegals to possess firearms. There has to be a line between a Constitutional Absolutist and common sense.

One does have to define exactly what types of crimes were involved. In some cases it is claimed it was people that were smoking marijuana.
If he was on purpose catering to criminals, that is one thing. If some of his buyers happened to someone convicted of violent crimes, just depends on how many and were any of his guns used in the commission of violent crime.
I need more facts before I can pass judgement. I can say he made some extremely unwise choices.

Raven · Mar 23, 2024

Bowhntr6pt said:
Not seeing a need for a no-knock... lack of leadership and judgement.

ETA- Probably some points-based threat assessment gave them the "official" ok to do the warrant execution in that fashion and no one had the courage, judgement, or concern to say "hey guys, hold up a minute".

Only things this SNAFU lacks are a dead dog, wife, children and a fire

Raven · Mar 23, 2024

FNHman said:
Can someone from the atf that frequents this forum please tell us members what a citizen has to do to get a no knock issued on their residence cause this has to be way beyond the standard bs they try to rob from our constitutional rights.

Devils advocate says:
I'm probably going to get hung out to dry on this but I'll say it... most ATF guys are good people and not any different than anybody else that is good people except for the fact that they have made a living in law enforcement. Law enforcement is tough. Things don't always go as planned all the time and they don't have to tell you why they did things. We should all wait to pass judgement until the facts are made known to the public.

FNHman · Mar 23, 2024

The only way to keep criminals from getting weapons is to stop letting them out of prison. No amount of law with ever stop someone from buying/building/stealing a weapon of any sort. Until the the rest of society agrees "could have used all that Ukraine money we sent to build more prisons" we will have to deal with all these laws that the criminals dont follow anyway. Forcing regular citizens have the burden of "did I sell to someone who was misrepresenting themselves" is not the way of the future.

THE BACKGROUND CHECK SYSTEM SHOULD BE AVAILABLE TO EVERY CITIZEN FOR FREE "THEY OBVIOUSLY HAVE ENOUGH MONEY SINCE THEY SENT SO MUCH TO UKRAINE" SO WE CAN ALL MAKE EASY/SAFE/LEGAL TRANSFERS.

Rebel_Rider1969 · Mar 23, 2024

FNHman said:
The only way to keep criminals from getting weapons is to stop letting them out of prison. No amount of law with ever stop someone from buying/building/stealing a weapon of any sort. Until the the rest of society agrees "could have used all that Ukraine money we sent to build more prisons" we will have to deal with all these laws that the criminals dont follow anyway. Forcing regular citizens have the burden of "did I sell to someone who was misrepresenting themselves" is not the way of the future.

THE BACKGROUND CHECK SYSTEM SHOULD BE AVAILABLE TO EVERY CITIZEN FOR FREE "THEY OBVIOUSLY HAVE ENOUGH MONEY SINCE THEY SENT SO MUCH TO UKRAINE" SO WE CAN ALL MAKE EASY/SAFE/LEGAL TRANSFERS.

Sounds like a great idea, until they set the server overseas so the NSA can look at them all and build a nice database.... hey with the "free" app you could take a picture too. No.

fl57caveman · Mar 23, 2024

Raven said:
Devils advocate says:
I'm probably going to get hung out to dry on this but I'll say it... most ATF guys are good people and not any different than anybody else that is good people except for the fact that they have made a living in law enforcement. Law enforcement is tough. Things don't always go as planned all the time and they don't have to tell you why they did things. We should all wait to pass judgement until the facts are made known to the public.

facts will never surface, unless it aids the dem playbook...

wait, what is that sound?

never mind, just crickets from msm

FrommerStop · Mar 23, 2024

Raven said:
Only things this SNAFU lacks are a dead dog, wife, children and a fire

They will try to do better next time.

IronBeard · Mar 24, 2024

chef_josh said:
I’ll just go ahead and say it:

This could have been any one of us at any time. If you are an active member on this forum and think otherwise, maybe you aren’t paying enough attention to what the alphabet bois are actually doing, and who specifically they’re going after.

I don’t need to know what exact technicality this guy messed up on to know they’re trying to make criminals of all of us.

Nothing but an immense and immediate threat of danger to the public would warrant a 6am no knock raid. I don’t care if he was building unregistered machine guns, this was the absolute worst way for the feds to engage in an arrest. They wanted this.

They sent the message they wanted to.

IronBeard · Mar 24, 2024

Bowhntr6pt said:
Not seeing a need for a no-knock... lack of leadership and judgement.

ETA- Probably some points-based threat assessment gave them the "official" ok to do the warrant execution in that fashion and no one had the courage, judgement, or concern to say "hey guys, hold up a minute".

Thx. Your ETA points out a pattern/trend so obvious it takes great pain(s) to ignore. Yet still...

IronBeard · Mar 24, 2024

FNHman said:
Can someone from the atf that frequents this forum please tell us members what a citizen has to do to get a no knock issued on their residence cause this has to be way beyond the standard bs they try to rob from our constitutional rights.

They are taking notes and completing AARs. Doesn't take much "Internetting" to figure out what works or doesn't, both tactically and psyop-wise. TBT, we do offer up quite a bit of information, some even send it to their "representatives." I've got $5 that says this forum appears on more than one flow chart at various law enforcement agencies. Factor in somebody thinks we all hate them, they think they should be paid more, and they want to get promoted...

IronBeard · Mar 24, 2024

Southalabama said:
I’m not a fed just good at google

Department of Justice Announces Department-Wide Policy on Chokeholds and 'No-Knock' Entries

The Department of Justice today announced written department-wide policies explicitly prohibiting the use of “chokeholds” and “carotid restraints” unless deadly force is authorized, and limiting the circumstances in which the department’s federal law enforcement components are authorized to use...

www.justice.gov

I'll consider believing some of that if/when they implement "common sense" guidelines and restrictions to qualified immunity.

Raven · Mar 24, 2024

I want to hear one person pipe up and say the dead perpetrator deserved it... just one

it will make me feel better at least! Restore my faith in law enforcement

IronBeard · Mar 26, 2024

Raven said:
I want to hear one person pipe up and say the dead perpetrator deserved it... just one it will make me feel better at least! Restore my faith in law enforcement

Two full days. I don't think you're gonna get what ya want.

FrommerStop · Mar 26, 2024

IronBeard said:
Two full days. I don't think you're gonna get what ya want.

But he did somethings that were most unwise and nature did hand him a darwin award.

IronBeard · Mar 26, 2024

FrommerStop said:
But he did somethings that were most unwise and nature did hand him a darwin award.

Everyone, and everything, has a price.

ABlaster · Mar 26, 2024

My personal feelings are that he lived a lifestyle that actually did increase his likelihood of being the victim of a home invasion. Random home invasion robberies are super rare, and almost universally involve the suspects going to the wrong house. If he was dealing guns to known bad actors that makes it likely he would have cash and firearms in his home. Those are two things the kind of folks likely to commit home invasions really like.

At least in Florida, you can't apply specifically for a "no knock" warrant. The decision to announce, or how much or little to announce, is up to the team serving it based on the objectively reasonable standard.

If they had a search warrant, but not an arrest warrant, it would explain why they wanted him home when it got served. He has the means to go on the run for an extended period if they hit the house without him there. Makes sense they want him in the house for arrest purposes assuming the evidence they think is there is actually there.

I will say this is sounding a lot less like "he's just a guy selling a few guns to friends" and much more like he may be responsible for putting guns in the hands of bad guys.

FLT · Mar 26, 2024

The only thing I’m sure of is that we will never know the truth. It sure seems that atf looks for reasons to make things more difficult than they have to be.

ABlaster · Mar 26, 2024

Unfortunately, not being able to comment on active investigations is a real thing, not just a brush-off or attempt at hiding something. In today's high-speed information world that is not the norm, and allows for all kinds of misinformation to flourish unchallenged.

By the time the investigation is over, the lies have been repeated so often they have become the truth in the court of public opinion. It's been a very recent thing for agencies to release body camera footage of officer involved shootings before the case has gone to Grand Jury, but when the alternative is riots and looting, a bit of jury pollution is considered acceptable.

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