Wrong apartment....

[B52]

Total over reaction by the cop. Started by banging on the door telling police. A common criminal tactic used at all times of day. Why was the cop have the attack mode for just a Karren call? If I was on the jury the cop is toast. Second degree murder conviction. Keep in mind this is the same department that had a cop react to having an acorn fall on him and almost kill a man in custody.

 

[ABlaster]

Just from a tactical/CCW perspective (I'm not jumping into the details of the incident, as everyone has their opinions firmly held) a person can raise and fire a handgun before you can do anything about it. At the doorway distance, there is almost no difference in time to the first shot between having the gun at your side and already pointed at the target. If you wait for the armed person to move, even if your gun is already in your hand, they will get somewhere between one and three shots off before you can react.

I've done this scenario with Simunitions a LOT, and even when the CCW/Officer role player knows what's about to happen with their fingers on the trigger the shots are close to simultaneous. As the bad guy role player, I've noticed the longer I let the scenario play out the slower the CCW/Officer role player is to respond. You can only be mentally 99.9% ready to fire for so long before you start wondering if you will need to and it slows the reaction. Regardless of feelings about LE in general or this incident specifically, as people who go about armed daily understanding the time it takes to do things and react is critical.

Just something to consider as you go about your day-to-day EDC mindset.

 

[MarkJ]

Just from a tactical/CCW perspective (I'm not jumping into the details of the incident, as everyone has their opinions firmly held) a person can raise and fire a handgun before you can do anything about it. At the doorway distance, there is almost no difference in time to the first shot between having the gun at your side and already pointed at the target. If you wait for the armed person to move, even if your gun is already in your hand, they will get somewhere between one and three shots off before you can react.

I've done this scenario with Simunitions a LOT, and even when the CCW/Officer role player knows what's about to happen with their fingers on the trigger the shots are close to simultaneous. As the bad guy role player, I've noticed the longer I let the scenario play out the slower the CCW/Officer role player is to respond. You can only be mentally 99.9% ready to fire for so long before you start wondering if you will need to and it slows the reaction. Regardless of feelings about LE in general or this incident specifically, as people who go about armed daily understanding the time it takes to do things and react is critical.

Just something to consider as you go about your day-to-day EDC mindset.

Absolutely appreciate the discussion from a tactical perspective. I am not LE but I do have prior military service and really don't have much insight on how LE would train for scenarios like this.

I agree with the reaction times and situations you reference, but those scenarios you mention are accurate because both LE and suspect are in close proximity, facing each other and with no obstructions between them correct?

While you can't do too much about physical reaction time (other than repetitive training) you can improve your odds of being shot in an encounter by using your available surroundings to provide as much cover as possible.

 

[Raven]

Put the cop on trial for second degree murder and have a jury of his peers decide whether or not he's guilty. That's what trials are for. LEO on this thread saying that there's all sorts of case law saying the cops not guilty no matter if the shooting victim didn't point the gun at the LEO in his own house... the only way to reverse that kind of case law is to have new case law saying the cop is guilty and you don't get that unless a jury says a cop is guilty so put the cop on trial ASAP.

I would really like to see it be a military trial with the UCMJ which is a whole lot stricter than civilian law. That cop killed an active duty service member. That's destruction of government property

 

[IronBeard]

Body cam footage is out on the "net." That'll prevent a fair trial in 3, 2....

 

[Ric-san]

Put the cop on trial for second degree murder and have a jury of his peers decide whether or not he's guilty. That's what trials are for. LEO on this thread saying that there's all sorts of case law saying the cops not guilty no matter if the shooting victim didn't point the gun at the LEO in his own house... the only way to reverse that kind of case law is to have new case law saying the cop is guilty and you don't get that unless a jury says a cop is guilty so put the cop on trial ASAP.

I would really like to see it be a military trial with the UCMJ which is a whole lot stricter than civilian law. That cop killed an active duty service member. That's destruction of government property

Civilians don’t fall under the UCMJ, so no Court Martial for him. Also in your proposed trial; should the police officer be indicted first by a sitting Grand Jury…?

 

[Bodhisattva]

Put the cop on trial for second degree murder and have a jury of his peers decide whether or not he's guilty. That's what trials are for. LEO on this thread saying that there's all sorts of case law saying the cops not guilty no matter if the shooting victim didn't point the gun at the LEO in his own house... the only way to reverse that kind of case law is to have new case law saying the cop is guilty and you don't get that unless a jury says a cop is guilty so put the cop on trial ASAP.

I would really like to see it be a military trial with the UCMJ which is a whole lot stricter than civilian law. That cop killed an active duty service member. That's destruction of government property

To get there I think you’d need civilian input into the investigation process - something that will never happen. Thin Blue Line also comes to mind - right now the cop is at home, having not even been interviewed (they don’t do immediately when it’s a cop - but if you or I are in a shooting the interrogation starts immediately). The only person he’s talked to is more than likely his union representative.
And grand jury? Gimme a break. Again, the DA and law enforcement will be present and very likely tell them to no bill. Case over. Tragic.

 

[IronBeard]

Funeral was yesterday.

 

[Carl]

Once is an anomaly. Twice is coincidence. Three times and you gotta start thinking pattern/trend. The post incident words of the Okaloosa sheriff could be a boiler plate statement, or deflection/defensiveness. What else might have already happened that avoided public notice/release? Will be watching for a third incident, 'cause my spidey sense says there's something more here.

Reminds me of this one, its crestview police though and luckily he didn't die. I had a similar incident happen a few years ago but I didnt mget shot at. The cop was really young and visibly nervous, scared police are daangerous. https://weartv.com/news/local/crestview-man-shot-in-his-home-by-police-identified-as-green-beret

 

[Raven]

Reminds me of this one, its crestview police though and luckily he didn't die. I had a similar incident happen a few years ago but I didnt mget shot at. The cop was really young and visibly nervous, scared police are daangerous. https://weartv.com/news/local/crestview-man-shot-in-his-home-by-police-identified-as-green-beret

Yep no mention of whether or not the cop announced himself as a cop before or during entering that Green Beret's house. Just says they hollered out and then entered. Green Beret's saying he thought the cops were the intruders. Says the Green Beret's gun was drawn as he was clearing his own house... but it doesn't mention the obvious: the cops must have had their guns drawn to be able to beat that Green Beret to the trigger...

If some guy is found in my house pointing a gun at me I'd have to be afraid for my life first and foremost too, and it don't matter if they're wearing a badge or not. Looking for a badge won't happen until after I'm not staring down a muzzle

 

[IronBeard]

Reminds me of this one, its crestview police though and luckily he didn't die. I had a similar incident happen a few years ago but I didnt mget shot at. The cop was really young and visibly nervous, scared police are daangerous. https://weartv.com/news/local/crestview-man-shot-in-his-home-by-police-identified-as-green-beret

Yeah, Crestview. Joey Floyd(sp?) anyone?

I get there is a time to shoot. I've also had a 2-stage .mil trigger "stacked" and ready and thought, wait a second here. It can be done.

 

[IronBeard]

Yep no mention of whether or not the cop announced himself as a cop before or during entering that Green Beret's house. Just says they hollered out and then entered. Green Beret's saying he thought the cops were the intruders. Says the Green Beret's gun was drawn as he was clearing his own house... but it doesn't mention the obvious: the cops must have had their guns drawn to be able to beat that Green Beret to the trigger...

If some guy is found in my house pointing a gun at me I'd have to be afraid for my life first and foremost too, and it don't matter if they're wearing a badge or not. Looking for a badge won't happen until after I'm not staring down a muzzle

Good point here that segues into the "incident" of the Airman being killed in his own home. The apologists quickly point out that the body cam shows the agent announcing himself. Well, why wouldn't it? Key piece of information; the body cam is on the outside of the door attached to the agent. What was heard/understood, if anything, INSIDE, and at the distance the deceased was from the door when the agent announced his presence/intent? What other background noise might there have been? But, qualified immunity. Need to have a long, hard, unbiased look at that, IMO.

 

[MarkJ]

An unbiased look at Qualified Immunity, there's the rub. That has to be one of the most polarizing topics there is as it relates to the law enforcement environment. I'm not sure how that would get accomplished but I fully agree with you in that it needs to be looked at.

 

[Raven]

An unbiased look at Qualified Immunity, there's the rub. That has to be one of the most polarizing topics there is as it relates to the law enforcement environment. I'm not sure how that would get accomplished but I fully agree with you in that it needs to be looked at.

Definitely

 

[ABlaster]

Without looking it up, most folks don't understand what qualified immunity is or how many times it's denied. They hear the keyword "immunity" and assume it applies to all officers in every situation whether civil or criminal and without review. Not the case.

 

[MarkJ]

Here is a recent study about Qualified Immunity, it's quite an interesting read and worth the time.

Qualified immunity is perhaps America’s most controversial legal doctrine, erupting into the national consciousness during debate over police misconduct in 2020. Created by the U.S. Supreme Court four decades ago, the doctrine protects government officials from being sued for violating constitutional rights—unless victims can show those rights are “clearly established.” In practice, this often means pinpointing a published opinion from the Supreme Court or the federal appellate court in their jurisdiction finding the same conduct in the same circumstances unconstitutional.

• From 2010 through 2020, at least 5,526 cases before federal circuit courts raised qualified immunity on appeal, an average of about 500 cases a year.
• And from the first half of our study period to the second, the annual average of qualified immunity appeals grew by 20%, even as civil appeals of all types fell.

• In all, 59% of qualified immunity appeals were resolved solely in favor of government defendants, while 24% were resolved solely in favor of plaintiffs.
• Altogether, only 23% of appeals fit the popular conception of police accused of excessive force.

Contrary to popular belief, qualified immunity is not just about police accused of excessive force. It shields a wide array of government officials and conduct.

I didn't know any of this next part but it makes it financially impossible for the average American to fight Qualified Immunity claims in the court system;

In the four decades since, qualified immunity has barred lawsuits against federal, state, and local government officials unless plaintiffs can show that officials violated a clearly established constitutional right. And in practice the bar for being clearly established can be high: Courts often interpret clearly established strictly, meaning plaintiffs must show that either the Supreme Court or the federal appellate court in the same jurisdiction has already held that the same conduct in the same circumstances is unconstitutional. 3


Moreover, it is not enough to convince a district court judge that the right was clearly established. Qualified immunity gives government defendants a special right to immediately appeal to higher courts. In other types of civil cases (and in criminal ones), defendants can typically appeal only a final judgment against them. But government officials invoking qualified immunity can file what is known as an “interlocutory appeal” to immediately challenge the denial of qualified immunity at any stage of the litigation. 4 An official can ask a court to dismiss a case on qualified immunity grounds right after it is filed. If the court declines, the official can immediately file an interlocutory appeal instead of waiting for the case to be heard and decided on its merits. Later, the official can ask the court to throw the case out before trial because the evidence unearthed in discovery is insufficient to overcome qualified immunity. If the court declines, the official can file another of these special immediate appeals. And, of course, if the case goes to trial and the plaintiff wins, the official can file a final appeal after a judgment is entered. Qualified immunity therefore triples the appellate opportunities available to government officials accused of violating people’s constitutional rights—and, when used, multiplies the accompanying costs and delays. 5

Institute of Justice

 

[Bodhisattva]

Here is a recent study about Qualified Immunity, it's quite an interesting read and worth the time.








I didn't know any of this next part but it makes it financially impossible for the average American to fight Qualified Immunity claims in the court system;



Institute of Justice

Out of the facts arises the law......which is a fancy way of saying the right set of facts haven't occurred yet to give rise to a successful challenge to the concept of qualified immunity.

There are likely cases out there that would be a good challenge to QI, but a lot of folks just never hire a lawyer, and the court generally does not make a substantial inquiry into the facts since please are negotiated between the State and the Defendant (even if unrepresented).

 

[IronBeard]

Perception is reality.

 

[IronBeard]

The longer a perception continues, and the more it is confirmed/validated, the deeper the roots grow. Inaction and silence serve as validators...

 

[IronBeard]

If no valid reason(s) results in voluntarily changing the perception, the perception is destined to become a belief. Beliefs become a lifestyle and are passed on to the receptive, to include future generations. You don't "get left" of that, and the probability of countering/negating beliefs with "facts" reduces as time progresses. Welcome to perceived reality.