SB15 now deemed illegal to shoot from the shoulder..........

donr101395 · Dec 26, 2014

Glad I didn't buy one. This doesn't surprise me I predicted it when they first came out because morons were flaunting it and some retailers were even advertising it as being able to make your own legal unregistered SBR. Should make for an interesting situation since they ship with a letter saying it's ok to shoulder and now this letter says it's not.

SAWMAN · Dec 26, 2014

you predicted this ..... good for you. i am extremely glad that you did not build up a ar pistol like so many of us did. you are one smart feller.

congratulations on a great decision ..... and please ..... do not attempt to build up a ar/pistol in the future. --- sawman

donr101395 · Dec 26, 2014

SAWMAN said:
you predicted this ..... good for you. i am extremely glad that you did not build up a ar pistol like so many of us did. you are one smart feller.

congratulations on a great decision ..... and please ..... do not attempt to build up a ar/pistol in the future. --- sawman

I'm smart enough to not keep asking the ATF a question they already answered. Stevie Wonder could have seen this coming, it doesn't make me smarter than anyone, just a realist.

BruceWayne · Dec 26, 2014

SAWMAN said:
you predicted this ..... good for you. i am extremely glad that you did not build up a ar pistol like so many of us did. you are one smart feller.

congratulations on a great decision ..... and please ..... do not attempt to build up a ar/pistol in the future. --- sawman

Great response!

FrankT · Dec 26, 2014

Well that is not a good thing...so we have one letter saying the ATF cannot tell you the proper or improper way to hold a weapon and another saying they can. Now I can no longer shoot my glck from my shoulder should I want to. I still say the ATF has no authority as to where or how I hold my weapon to shoot...Otherwise i cANNOT SHOOT FROM THE HIP, shoulder with your arm at a 45*, 75* bend in your elbow? They can determine tomorrow I can only shoot left handed, or I cannot shoot a pistol with 2 hands as most of us do now?

Actually I would not worry too much about this as 2 authorities have different rulings and this in itself would mean a third ruling and maybe court would be needed to determine the official rule.

donr101395 · Dec 26, 2014

FrankT said:
Well that is not a good thing...so we have one letter saying the ATF cannot tell you the proper or improper way to hold a weapon and another saying they can. Now I can no longer shoot my glck from my shoulder should I want to. I still say the ATF has no authority as to where or how I hold my weapon to shoot...Otherwise i cANNOT SHOOT FROM THE HIP, shoulder with your arm at a 45*, 75* bend in your elbow? They can determine tomorrow I can only shoot left handed, or I cannot shoot a pistol with 2 hands as most of us do now?

Actually I would not worry too much about this as 2 authorities have different rulings and this in itself would mean a third ruling and maybe court would be needed to determine the official rule.

I'm not saying I agree with them, but they aren't regulating what position you can shoot from unless you are using the aid of a "stock". Once you use the SB15 as a shoulder stock they are saying you redesigned it's intended use and have violated NFA laws if the barrel is less than 16". I think it's a stretch to say you redesigned it, but I also don't think I want to be the test case for it since in federal court most things are plea bargained which would mean a conviction of some type, and of those that aren't plea bargained they have a conviction rate above 90%.

FrankT · Dec 26, 2014

Oh I am agreeing with you Don as if you keep asking the question just like with the IRS, the ATF is going to come up with different explanations. I am just saying this is not an official ruling and before it becomes law you will have to have a third decision before this is made into law clarifying the outcome...or a court case as they catch someone shouldering a weapon and decide to prosecute. What we have in the above is simply an opinion by one official answering a question. I think the person would get away w the test case as there are confusing and differing answers to the same question.

TackleberryMCS · Dec 26, 2014

donr101395 said:
Glad I didn't buy one. This doesn't surprise me I predicted it when they first came out because morons were flaunting it and some retailers were even advertising it as being able to make your own legal unregistered SBR. Should make for an interesting situation since they ship with a letter saying it's ok to shoulder and now this letter says it's not.

This was just a matter of time. I had been hoping that someone in the ATF would see the light of day. Now, the question is, how many guys who have a SB15 are really going to care? How many are going to take the chance of being caught shouldering their AR pistol with the SB15? How many are going to be pulling their SB15 off right away? All I can say is, I am glad I made a good decision to not buy one. I will stick with my pistol buffer tube with the neoprene cover on the end of it.

ETA: There may be a lot of Form 1s getting filled out real soon. :smile:

Bradb55 · Dec 26, 2014

I agree with you Don. I wish folks would quit asking the question

donr101395 · Dec 26, 2014

FrankT said:
Oh I am agreeing with you Don as if you keep asking the question just like with the IRS, the ATF is going to come up with different explanations. I am just saying this is not an official ruling and before it becomes law you will have to have a third decision before this is made into law clarifying the outcome...or a court case as they catch someone shouldering a weapon and decide to prosecute. What we have in the above is simply an opinion by one official answering a question. I think the person would get away w the test case as there are confusing and differing answers to the same question.

I don't see them letting someone get away being the test case. If they did that then case law would make it so they couldn't prosecute someone else easily for the same thing. What I could see happening is that they would plea it down to something more minor and making it widely known that they(ATF) won. Personally, I'd just as soon stay out of it. I hate paying tax stamps, but not nearly as much as I would hate federal pound me in the ass prison.

Snow Bird · Dec 26, 2014

How many see the ATF lurking around you in your blind or when you are in the country?

Brandon_SPC · Dec 26, 2014

Maybe someone might file a suit against this stating that the ATF can't dictate how you hold a firearm! Couple rights being infringed on 2nd amendment and 1st amendment. Maybe I want to shoulder my pistol. It is how I express myself just like a thug or a gangsta holds their pistol 7 ft in the air turned to the side.

donr101395 · Dec 26, 2014

Just to add more silliness, they define a pistol as designed to be fired with one hand, when will they make a determination making it illegal to fire a pistol with a two handed grip since you will be using it not the way it was designed.

Brandon_SPC · Dec 26, 2014

donr101395 said:
Just to add more silliness, they define a pistol as designed to be fired with one hand, when will they make a determination making it illegal to fire a pistol with a two handed grip since you will be using it not the way it was designed.

Oh gosh don't say that. Police departments like the NYPD with their 12lb trigger pull and shooting one hand would just make it worse. I feel sorry for them already having to have such a high trigger weight in their pistol.

John B. · Dec 26, 2014

Brandon_SPC said:
Maybe someone might file a suit against this stating that the ATF can't dictate how you hold a firearm! Couple rights being infringed on 2nd amendment and 1st amendment. Maybe I want to shoulder my pistol. It is how I express myself just like a thug or a gangsta holds their pistol 7 ft in the air turned to the side.

The entire "SBR" ordeal is an infringement on our rights! Why does it matter how long a barrel is? I don't see much difference in regulating barrel length and regulating mag capacity. Both an infringement on my rights in my opinion.

Sent from my Galaxy S5....

Brandon_SPC · Dec 26, 2014

John B. said:
The entire "SBR" ordeal is an infringement on our rights! Why does it matter how long a barrel is? I don't see much difference in regulating barrel length and regulating mag capacity. Both an infringement on my rights in my opinion.

Sent from my Galaxy S5....

I know it is. I see it the same way. I wish SBR, Supressors, fully auto firearms wasn't regulated by the ATF. Actually the ATF is BS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

donr101395 · Dec 26, 2014

John B. said:
The entire "SBR" ordeal is an infringement on our rights! Why does it matter how long a barrel is? I don't see much difference in regulating barrel length and regulating mag capacity. Both an infringement on my rights in my opinion.

Sent from my Galaxy S5....

CCW permits, NFA in its entirety, mag capacity laws, etc. are all infringements, unfortunately our opinion doesn't carry the same weight as the legislators enacting the laws, law enforcement enforcing the laws, and the courts applying the laws.

Brandon_SPC · Dec 26, 2014

donr101395 said:
CCW permits, NFA in its entirety, mag capacity laws, etc. are all infringements, unfortunately our opinion doesn't carry the same weight as the legislators enacting the laws, law enforcement enforcing the laws, and the courts applying the laws.

Unless you have enough people stand up. Colorado is an example with the 15rd mag limit. The local police and sheriff department have tried multiple times to repeal it. Now a lot of them don't inforce it. It just takes enough citizens.

--That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government

Laid right before us from our fore fathers!

Daezee · Dec 26, 2014

At one point, the ATF letter says "should stock" instead of "shoulder stock".

Droshki · Dec 26, 2014

Daezee said:
At one point, the ATF letter says "should stock" instead of "shoulder stock".

I saw that. You'd think they proof read.

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SB15 now deemed illegal to shoot from the shoulder..........

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