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  • M118LR

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    Thank You Gentlemen, but the Bolt Action Extreme Long Range Locker is fully stocked at present. I've even been shipping off the Bolt Action 300 Win Magnums, 1500 yard KD Ranges are a little hard to find round North East Florida Nowadays.
     

    SAWMAN

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    Another thought - -> the typical "long range" (>600m) match that is shot by people shooting semi auto guns is how far ?? In each string,how long do you have to shoot how many shots ??
    If a barrel heats up,how is the accuracy effected at 1000yds ??
    In a typical 1000yd benchrest match,how long do you have to shoot the string ?? What type of action is typically used to shoot these matches ?? --- SAWMAN
     

    M118LR

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    Another thought - -> the typical "long range" (>600m) match that is shot by people shooting semi auto guns is how far ?? In each string,how long do you have to shoot how many shots ??
    If a barrel heats up,how is the accuracy effected at 1000yds ??
    In a typical 1000yd benchrest match,how long do you have to shoot the string ?? What type of action is typically used to shoot these matches ?? --- SAWMAN

    The standard F-class 1000 yard match is 40 rounds just like the typical 600 yard match. Even the target sizes are matched to MOA at 1K & 600 yards. Only the heaviest of barrels are used by Civilians at both the 600 & 1000 yard KD ranges, unless it's a Military Requalification Round. In which case, your issued rifle & ammo is used to complete the annual qualification. Once you have accomplished a Military Expert Score, you will be expected to at least meet those minimum standards every year till the Service do you part. Failure to meet min Expert specifications is grounds for reassignment. But I'm going to assume you already knew this. Standard slow fire NRA rules apply to F-Class NRA Shooting, and yes highly tuned hand fitted bolt action rifles and top end glass are used by the best competitors typically at the top of the Class. But the .308Win/7.62 x 51MM is the only cartridge allowed in NRA F-Class Sanctioned Matches.

    But there are no NRA Officials on the Red Cloud Range during the once a month MWR weekend. As long as you complete all the Army directed bureaucratic requirements, you are free to test your skills with the mandated .308 or less at the steel plates of the 1K, 750 yard, and all the shorter KD pits on the Red Cloud Range. It's still a Blast!!

    Know the M852 168 SMK did dominate the 300 yard KD range, M118 175 SMK did prove it's even at the 600 yard KD line, and was the hands down victor at the 1000 yard KD line. So why am I looking for another semi-automatic rifle to use on the Red Cloud Range? After more than 3K rounds passed out of the M1ASM's last barrel I passed it down the family line. Is it still a viable 600 yard competition rifle? Depends on the skills of the folks on the 600 yard KD line. But most off the rack bolt actions are going to need an exceptional shooters shoulder just to compete.

    Am I going to receive invitations to shoot with/against the AMU @ Fort Stewart? Probably not! Especially since the guy I knew that ran the unit has passed into RETIREMENT. But that doesn't mean informal/bragging rights for the Family Turkey Shoot aren't important. LOL.

    But I guess the best answer is to ask how many 1K F-Class or recreational shooters have scratched the mark at the line with anyone using a semi-automatic? Just image the rethinking if some Old Man with an Old M14 Variant Rifle managed to outperform that brash youngster with his Top of the Chart Micro Fitted Bolt Action? LOL.
     
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    Jhunter

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    Velocity is going to be a problem. There is a reason why winners in F-class tac are using 30” barrels and driving 200 grainers well above pressure that a semi auto platform can withstand. The problem begins when a bullet slows to 1340 FPS and below. As stated in my post above, things start to open up at distance. 1/2 moa at 300 and 600 are well within reach but the transonic stage at 1000 that causes a 1/2 minute gun to open up to 2 moa at distance. https://www.accurateshooter.com/ballistics/transonic-effects-on-bullet-stability-bc/
     

    M118LR

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    Velocity is going to be a problem. There is a reason why winners in F-class tac are using 30” barrels and driving 200 grainers well above pressure that a semi auto platform can withstand. The problem begins when a bullet slows to 1340 FPS and below. As stated in my post above, things start to open up at distance. 1/2 moa at 300 and 600 are well within reach but the transonic stage at 1000 that causes a 1/2 minute gun to open up to 2 moa at distance. https://www.accurateshooter.com/ballistics/transonic-effects-on-bullet-stability-bc/

    Jhunter the 175 SMK leaves the end of my 22 inch barrel @2750 fps it is completely supersonic to well after 1000 yards. Now if your attempting to drive the 168 SMK out to the 1000 yard line not only shall you suffer transonic but also design stability problems. That is why Mexican Match Ammo was a 300 yard Wonder. In service M852 is commonly used by designated marksmen out to 800 yards at most.

    Even at a lowly 2550 the 175 SMK is still supersonic @ 1K yards, that is why it was selected for LR by the Military.

    Now the US .30 Cal and 7.62 x 67 have the case capacity to launch 200 grain .308 projectiles with enough initial velocity to remain supersonic, but the 7.62 x 51 performance peaks with the 175 SMK. Even the 190 SMK won't outperform at 1000 yards. Now the 7.62 x 67 will drive the 265 SMK supersonic beyond 1500 yards, but as a Civilian you won't be using it at the Red Cloud Range, and even the Old 30-06 isn't an F-class entrant, only the mild mannered 7.62 x 51/ .308 Win is sanctioned.

    But when you start reducing .308 Win barrels to 20,18, ( 16 which is used with the 175 SMK in the XM3 Remington out to 1K yards supersonically) you have to factor in the Ballistic Coefficient Loss of every step in velocity loss along the entire trajectory. In lay terms, as a projectile slows in speed BC changes and wind drift has a greater effect. Now spindrift can add wind error or subtract from it dependent on wind direction and rifling twist. (ie RHT or LHT.) At 1000 yards the coriolis effect doesn't have as great an effect as evidenced in 1500 - 2500 yard or longer trajectories. But the hemisphere your shooting in can add or subtract from wind values along with rifle twist direction and wind direction. We haven't even added in temp, altitude, or humidity effecting elevation calculations. JMHO.

    Skipping back a ways to the AR's was the mention of DI vs Piston, to my knowledge DI is friendlier on Extreme distance shooting, while the piston systems are more adept at high cyclic rates.
     
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    M118LR

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    Entertaining reading from American Rifleman:


    So to make it as simple as possible, I believe that the 175 SMK is capable of 1000 yard performance at .308 Win velocities.

    since the simple days of:

    leatherwood scope.jpg


    even with unsophisticated rapid ranging:

    reticle_view.jpg


    Really Old Folks can still make it simple.

    PS set the Dope on the Scope to 400 yards, or crank that Old Cam to 400 yards and you have resolved the Shooting Solution. Save the batteries on your Palm Pilot, it's really that simple. JMHO.

    Unknown distance resolution with nothing more than the Mildots on your reticle. LOL.

    Have we resolved all the mathematical complexity? Or need do I need to explain the simplistic method to complex shooters?
     
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