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Scout Rifle, Conceptual, Tactical, and Reality.

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  • M118LR

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    So we all all understand the concept of the "Scout Rifle". Tactically it was supposed to be a lightweight concept of a Sniper Rifle designed "Back in the Day" of the 2 man Forward Observer Team, or even "Lone Operator" concept. Well it's been allot of years since since a "Forward Operator" left camp with a green can full of Government Crackers and their Government Issued Equipment. Perhaps there is a reason why the USMC decided to bring the XM3 from Remington's Custom Shop Aboard? The "Scout Rifle" was supposed to be a lighter version of the M21-M14NM in Service with the USMC,ARMY, and US Navy. Perhaps the reason it failed acceptance was the Optics available now and then? Yes there are 7.62 x 51 rifles capable of Sub-MOA 1K accuracy, but what Forward Mounted Optics can match or exceed 1980's Government Day Telescopes?

    So while Remington's 40-X Series Rifles from the "Custom House" may now be a thing of the past. A "Scout Rifle" concept of 300 yard accuracy has been surpassed in USMC Boot camp since the invention of the M16. But in reality a wounded Warrior that is able to communicate your current position even if OUT of the Fight, has still compromised a Forward Observer. (Team or Individual) So is the "Scout Rifle Concept" a Tactical Failure on the Battlefield? If so, why are folks so determined to own one Today?

    The limiting factor for actual tactical operations I currently find are the forward mounted optics of Our time. What say Y'all?
     

    Duckyou

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    Who wants to own one for tactical purposes?

    There are so many better options.

    As a fun, or real collectible - cool.

    You are not going to grab a scout rifle and head into the woods to face the blue hats or any other force.
     

    M118LR

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    Who wants to own one for tactical purposes?

    There are so many better options.

    As a fun, or real collectible - cool.

    You are not going to grab a scout rifle and head into the woods to face the blue hats or any other force.
    Just what Tactical Purpose was the "Scout Rifle" supposed to perform?

    What are those better options?

    Just what Rifle are you supposed to head into the Battlefield with to brace those Blue Hats ALONE?
     

    Raven

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    Whatever anybody grabs nowadays should at the very least be semi-auto. Plenty of 1 MOA semiautos around nowadays for cheaper and lighter weight than Rugers M77 "scout rifle"
    Screenshot_20220524-193520_Chrome.jpg
     
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    M118LR

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    Whatever anybody grabs nowadays should at the very least be semi-auto. Plenty of 1 MOA semiautos around nowadays for cheaper and lighter weight than Rugers M77 "scout rifle"
    About those 7lb Semi-auto's in 7.62x51mm with slings & scopes?
    I may be a bit confused, Please enlighten me. Thank You.
     

    G-rat

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    i love the scout rifle concept, always been a huge fan. that being said, theres a whole wide world of modern type rifles to do roughly the same task. back in the day, .308 was king. now theres about 10-15 rounds that beat it on ballistics alone. said it before and will repeat myself, i love my 20" AR in 5.56 and it'll handle almost anything out to 400. if i was to do a scout type rifle today, it'd be a Savage Hog Hunter in .308 with a forward mounted optic like a 1-8x 24 Trijicon Accupower or similar. kinda like this one...
    1653439746577.png
     

    M118LR

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    About what?
    About what a Sub 7 lb rifle/optic incapable of 1K 98% performance on a six inch target is supposed to do for a Forward Observer? If the BAD GUY is still able to pick up a cell phone and report the area of operation that you are probing, what advantage do Y'all have???????

    400 yards is less than the normal "Kill Zone" of Todays Marines enrolled in Bootcamp with a 5.56 M-4 in theory. Actually, it's allot less for a one shot stop. JMHO.
     

    Raven

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    About what a Sub 7 lb rifle/optic incapable of 1K 98% performance on a six inch target is supposed to do for a Forward Observer? If the BAD GUY is still able to pick up a cell phone and report the area of operation that you are probing, what advantage do Y'all have???????

    400 yards is less than the normal "Kill Zone" of Todays Marines enrolled in Bootcamp with a 5.56 M-4 in theory. Actually, it's allot less for a one shot stop. JMHO.
    The very same Colonel who pioneered the "scout" rifle also famously said that a hit on a pie plate (or paper plate or something like that) at 100 yards... every time, from any position, in any weather condition... is enough
     

    M118LR

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    The very same Colonel who pioneered the "scout" rifle also famously said that a hit on a pie plate (or paper plate or something like that) at 100 yards... every time, from any position, in any weather condition... is enough
    How times have changed. Currently SOCOM has issued the 1500 yard minimum for Forward Observers/Scouts/Snipers, so the lightest weight rifle in inventory appears to be the M2010 (Old M24 upgraded stock & chambered for 300 Win Mag) Semi-auto wise only the Barrett (really heavy) is in inventory. It appears that the Scout Concept is dead, and heavier longer range platforms are becoming the normal. Perhaps the open terrain of OUR last conflict has as much influence on this as the Jungle Terrain had on selection of the 5.56 & M16? About the only role left for the .308 Win is as a suppression round utilized by the spotter in support of the Big Gun. If the services actually adopt 6.5 SAW's, then perhaps even that task will fall to 6.5? It remains to be seen, the future is uncertain at best. But the wheels on Big Green turn slowly when it comes to purchasing small arms during peace time.

    So for all intensive purposes, the "Scout Rifle" is little more than a lightweight Civilian Hunting Rifle with a detachable mag. The 2 eyes open shooting style shouldn't be much of a hindrance out to say 200 yards. But distances beyond that may prove beneficial to a standard optic placement? (At least higher quality/clarity/ repeatable mechanical accuracy)

    https://barrett.net/products/firearms/m107a1/
     

    Grits1/5

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    For optics on a “scout rifle”, hasn’t the concept of LPVO’s really replaced and improved the idea of the forward mounted optic? For rifle platforms, there are tons of options available now. Calibers will always be debated, and although I love .308, 6.5 has probably become the better round. Availability of ammunition is really the biggest advantage that .308 has going for it. The concept of Designated Marksman is more appealing to me than just the scout. Or follow the old Marine Corps doctrine where every Marine is expected to accurately shoot at 500yds. Ammunition quality is also a factor in the concept of these scouts or marksmen. The government has a habit of not supplying high quality match grade ammunition to their marksmen. On the Barrett .50’s (obviously not a scout rifle) the military will spend $20k on a rifle platform and yet issue it with the same ball ammo as feeds Ma Deuce. And many 7.62 DMR rifles are fed just m80 ball (even though m118lr is available, it isn’t always issued.
    I think a properly trained marksman with a good LPVO on an appropriate rifle, with quality ammunition, will surpass the goals of Jeff Cooper’s original scout rifle..
     

    M118LR

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    It's hard to mount most LPVO's forward of the ejection port, It's roughly 9 1/2 inches from the forward most point of the ejection port to the end of the bolt when at it's most rearward travel. Thus scopes with 3 -5 inch eye relief will need to cover the ejection port when mounted. Most of the LER Scout scopes also fall within the LPVO category.

    • Accuracy: should be capable of shooting into 2 MOA (0.6 mrad) or less (4 inches or 120 mm) at 200 meters/yards (3 shot groups)
    "The general-purpose rifle will do equally well for all but specialized hunting, as well as for fighting; thus it must be powerful enough to kill any living target of reasonable size. If you insist upon a definition of 'reasonable size', let us introduce an arbitrary mass figure of about 1,000 lb (454 kg)."[4]

     

    DAS HUGH!

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    I think the word scout says it all really. It's not exactly meant to be a sniper rifle per say. But a middle of the road marriage of things a scout actually needs most. They're not a offensive role mostly. They're there to get close and report back, and make it back alive. Without the enemy knowing they was there. Actual sniper rifles aren't exactly what you want. Rather I think you'd want something capable of yes engaging if your spotted, but also being able to engage multiple targets quickly in case there's many chasing you so to speak, hence the pistol style scopes with large feilds of view. But overall you want a smaller light rifle with plenty of power that's accurate. But you don't need to take mile long shots with it if you're just observing. So I think there lies the misconception in many ways maybe. I nearly bought a Steyr Scout in 308. I wished I did. The thing had all sorts of bells and whistles. And it was light as heck. And despite its looks you could mount a scope over the breach still like normal I believe. But I'm no expert and this is just my opinion

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    M118LR

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    Perhaps the last Scout Role performed was during the first Gulf War, Nowadays drones carry out most of those responsibilities? JMHO.
     

    DAS HUGH!

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    Yeah. But I think the human will never be replaced. As snipers and scouts have to train on things many don't realize. They also have to train on facial recognition and be able to identify people from a ground level and so on. But even drones may be able to land and do that by now. But some missions may call for a actual set of eyes on things. Technology may catch up to drones tho sooner than later. They may get radar more refined and make that harder. Where as a man on foot, may be harder to stop lol

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    M118LR

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    Yeah. But I think the human will never be replaced. As snipers and scouts have to train on things many don't realize. They also have to train on facial recognition and be able to identify people from a ground level and so on. But even drones may be able to land and do that by now. But some missions may call for a actual set of eyes on things. Technology may catch up to drones tho sooner than later. They may get radar more refined and make that harder. Where as a man on foot, may be harder to stop lol

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    Ain't many drones in Leavenworth, but should a Forward Observer, Scout, or Sniper error Kansas is their home.
     

    DAS HUGH!

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    Ain't many drones in Leavenworth, but should a Forward Observer, Scout, or Sniper error Kansas is their home.
    Lol very true. Plausible deniability at its finest I guess. And far more expendable than millions spent on training humans

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    M118LR

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    Lol very true. Plausible deniability at its finest I guess. And far more expendable than millions spent on training humans

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    Yet somehow $0.68 worth of 308 ammunition maybe too expensive for those trained humans to carry? More or less expend without the proper documentation. But we digress, into the logistics center far from the tip of the spear of war. The scout rifle was a concept, devised by someone who did not like plastic rifles of the time, but could foresee that the 556 was not an open terrain cartridge.
     

    Raven

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    It's hard to mount most LPVO's forward of the ejection port, It's roughly 9 1/2 inches from the forward most point of the ejection port to the end of the bolt when at it's most rearward travel. Thus scopes with 3 -5 inch eye relief will need to cover the ejection port when mounted. Most of the LER Scout scopes also fall within the LPVO category.

    • Accuracy: should be capable of shooting into 2 MOA (0.6 mrad) or less (4 inches or 120 mm) at 200 meters/yards (3 shot groups)
    "The general-purpose rifle will do equally well for all but specialized hunting, as well as for fighting; thus it must be powerful enough to kill any living target of reasonable size. If you insist upon a definition of 'reasonable size', let us introduce an arbitrary mass figure of about 1,000 lb (454 kg)."[4]

    The deadliest sniper in history used a Mosin Nagant with a lightweight barrel and no scope or bipod at all. And yes, the Marines of my day we had M16A2's without rails, scopes or bipods and we nailed targets at 500 yards all damn day. And yes, LPVO's have trumped long eye relief scopes on everything except rifles equipped with stripper clip guides
     

    Raven

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    Perhaps the last Scout Role performed was during the first Gulf War, Nowadays drones carry out most of those responsibilities? JMHO.
    We had scouts on bikes 20 years after the first Gulf War. The IED solved that and we sold what bikes survived. Then drones took over. My Regimental HQ tried to get me to take the course because I already had a motorcycle and license. I said no because I was fresh out of knee surgery. They sent my roommate, thinking that even though he didn't have a bike or a license that I could help him. He damn near died on a jump and it crippled him. Probably saved his life though. Damn IED's took a toll. An IED literally gutted my buddy Drayton just beneath his plate carrier too but at least he lived to tell about it
     
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