Precision AR .308 Win.

[Jester896]

All are bolt guns, 1 is on my long range rig and 1 on a custom hunting rig. I had trouble with 1 on a long range hunting rifle and was not able to get any assistance from them with it. The other 2 are fantastic. The LR shoots about .25MOA-.33MOA at 1K, it is on a Stiller action and the other one goes in just about the same hole at 100 yards...some of that may be shooter error it is on a trued 700 action and both are .260s.

 

[seandizzie]

.33” out of a gasser consistently? I don’t think I have ever seen anyone show proof of that.

Best I have ever seen is .5 ish across multiple 5 shot groups. I believe it was a larue rifle modified heavily and a bartlien barrel. And a damn good shooter.

A lot of times i get results like this, btw shot at 118yards. A few tight… then random flyers.

or occasionally get lucky

But not consistently across a large sample size.

But I would not consider that rifle sub moa all day. With the wrong cartridge components I have seen buck shot patterns. Hell with the right components it still spits flyers that I would not attribute to shooter error. But if I cherry pick groups like I did above i can make it look better than it is

All day it shoots around 1.5 moa.

 

[seandizzie]

Also taking a minute in between shots kinda negates the purpose of the semi auto. IMO

See what it does in fairly rapid fire. That is how all the above groups were fired, maybe 5-10 seconds between shots.

 

[lil'skeet]

Also taking a minute in between shots kinda negates the purpose of the semi auto. IMO

See what it does in fairly rapid fire. That is how all the above groups were fired, maybe 5-10 seconds between shots.

My thought to the "T".
You can cut a lot of weight with a bolt action if you want to wait 1 minute between shots. Gain more consistent velocities. Still be able to go detachable magazine. Far more reliable. Much cleaner. A lot less $.
Use that weight savings to go with a heavier profile bbl.

 

[M118LR]

Also taking a minute in between shots kinda negates the purpose of the semi auto. IMO

See what it does in fairly rapid fire. That is how all the above groups were fired, maybe 5-10 seconds between shots.

If the rifle/ammo/shooter combo is able to hold 1 inch @300 yards is there a real requirement for semiautomatic fire? But it is easier to maintain proper cheek weld without the need to work a bolt, and 10 rounds without removing the rifle from your shoulder makes for less manipulation than reloading a 4 round blind box. Can I surmise that an M1A, Garand, or other Battlefield Rifles don't fall into the Catagory of Gasser? Or is this just an idiom for Stoner Style Carbines? But I must agree, the mechanical accuracy of a rifle almost always has a lower tolerance than that of the nut behind the butt. Isn't that why tasks like sighting in the rifle and tailoring handloads are performed from a rest? Once you can achieve 1 inch at 300 yards of mechanical accuracy, then it's up to the nut behind the butt to attempt to match that performance prone, sitting, kneeling, and most difficultly standing. (Neither the NRA nor the Military demand such repeatable requirements standing unsupported to my knowledge) YMMV. But rapid fire requirements of ten rounds in one minute will make for higher demands on the mechanical accuracy of the rifle/ammo. Not to mention the nut behind the butt. Gunsmiths & Barrel Makers can hone the mechanical accuracy of the equipment, but they can't do anything about the nut behind the butt. LOL. JMHO. YMMV.

 

[Jester896]

I wouldn't want to leave a round in a hot chamber for any length of time. If you did it had better be an extremely stable powder. I can only imagine it being worse in a gasser.

 

[M118LR]

I wouldn't want to leave a round in a hot chamber for any length of time. If you did it had better be an extremely stable powder. I can only imagine it being worse in a gasser.

That is a critical point of contention! Although, about that 20 rounds in two minutes inside one inch at 300 yards while manipulating a bolt action! How are those "Mad Minute" practice runs working out on the 300 KD Line? But modern ammunition makers did have to make adjustments for your concerns in Military Firearm Ammunition manufacturing. Give a moment to find the somewhat related article. Still haven't figured out how to copy text from my phone, But if you skip down a bit you will find "that it finally came down to chamber temperature" effected ammunition like barrel temperature also effects consistency. Sorry about my lack of tech skills, but us Old folks don't mind reading, they used to teach it to us in school just like writing in cursive. LOL. https://www.shootingtimes.com/edito...vilians-black-hills-mk-262-mod-1-review/99098

 

[M118LR]

So perhaps I should make some things clear. .333 MOA in a bolt action ain't a hard min spec for mechanical accuracy. 20 rounds within an inch at the 300 yard KD Line sitting, kneeling, or prone within two minutes while manipulating a bolt handle takes more practice than squeezing the trigger on a twenty round mag semiauto. So that leads to why my requirements for 1 inch at 300 yards from a Stoner Type Semiauto came about. Believe me when I state that these requirements have, can, and will be meet regularly with semiauto M1A Super match/M14NM/M21/M-25 22 inch Barreled rifles. So while bolt action mechanical accuracy is actually superior, operator preference and ease of operation also effects the actual end product. Hope I effectively communicated this? Hope it clarifies things. YMMV.

 

[seandizzie]

If the rifle/ammo/shooter combo is able to hold 1 inch @300 yards is there a real requirement for semiautomatic fire? But it is easier to maintain proper cheek weld without the need to work a bolt, and 10 rounds without removing the rifle from your shoulder makes for less manipulation than reloading a 4 round blind box. Can I surmise that an M1A, Garand, or other Battlefield Rifles don't fall into the Catagory of Gasser? Or is this just an idiom for Stoner Style Carbines? But I must agree, the mechanical accuracy of a rifle almost always has a lower tolerance than that of the nut behind the butt. Isn't that why tasks like sighting in the rifle and tailoring handloads are performed from a rest? Once you can achieve 1 inch at 300 yards of mechanical accuracy, then it's up to the nut behind the butt to attempt to match that performance prone, sitting, kneeling, and most difficultly standing. (Neither the NRA nor the Military demand such repeatable requirements standing unsupported to my knowledge) YMMV. But rapid fire requirements of ten rounds in one minute will make for higher demands on the mechanical accuracy of the rifle/ammo. Not to mention the nut behind the butt. Gunsmiths & Barrel Makers can hone the mechanical accuracy of the equipment, but they can't do anything about the nut behind the butt. LOL. JMHO. YMMV.

I am speaking specifically of an Ar-10/Ar-308 style system. And yes the shooter matters. Every element of the system matters!

I guess what I am getting at is I have never seen any one show proof of one of these systems shooting .33 moa “all day”. Which is what you wish to achieve. That is some high level bench rest accuracy! I am here just share the little I know, and showing support to anyone attempting it as I am chasing it myself with this style system.

And I hear you one the speed of fire, I was just throwing out an opinion.

As far as copying text, at least on an I phone double tap.

It will bring up the blue highlight and lines with the blue circle, drag the circle to high light the text you wish to copy.

Then hit copy… then go to where you wish to put the copied text, double tap and select paste

 

[M118LR]

Now there are World Records at the 300 yard KD Range held by folks with Stoner Type Carbines/Rifles. That includes Military Service Rifle Class which would allow all those Military Bolt Actions and other gas feed Battle Rifles to compete. So somebody has to have figured out a way to make gasser's shoot at least as mechanically accurate, or are you telling me that folks with inferior mechanical accuracy firearms can, have, and will perform better than other marksmen with superior mechanical accuracy performing firearms for some reason? The children are worried about outshooting me when the force is upon me, But I have yet to meet a competitor on the 300 yard KD that shared their opinion. Thanks for the tech savie, now if I can perform it, well that may be a different story. LOL

 

[seandizzie]

are you telling me that folks with inferior mechanical accuracy firearms can, have, and will perform better than other marksmen with superior mechanical accuracy performing firearms for some reason?

I am saying I have personally never seen proof of an Ar-10/Ar-308 shooting say 6x 5 shot groups into .33moa or around 1” at 300yards.

If its out there I am all ears and very curious how it was done.

 

[Bowhntr6pt]

I am saying I have personally never seen proof of an Ar-10/Ar-308 shooting say 6x 5 shot groups into .33moa or around 1” at 300yards.

If its out there I am all ears and very curious how it was done.

I'd have to consider the source if not personally witnessed.

Count me in as having the desire to learn of a consistently performing .33 MOA gasser.

A one-time accomplishment means nothing.

 

[M118LR]

The boys at the AMU at Fort Stewart had .308 Knights Armament SASS that shot less than 1/2 MOA at 750 yards. Never did shoot any 300 yard events with them, so I can't say what size they actually grouped at 300 yards. But they all have personalized equipment and an armorer that specifically maintains their firearms. So I'm not sure that would count? But those folks at the AMU can definitely shoot! And they use gasser's nowadays, so perhaps we should find a way to converse with one of the Service Marksmanship armourers? Back in my day those folks new every trick in the book to make M14's shoot as well as Bolt Actions out to 1000 yards. Unfortunately my AMU connection at Fort Stewart retired, so I don't think I'll be able to tap into that resource directly. But there may be a forum member that still has an Active Duty Serviceman that has a connection to the Marksmanship Units? Maybe they could share?

 

[M118LR]

Is their a better BCG than those from LMT. How about a boron finished link that someone has? Or are sharps dlc BCG's. Who is using what?

 

[M118LR]

So I'm wondering if the doubting susans are concerned that the action of a Stoner Style carbine isn't able to be precision bedded like M14 derivatives or bolt action rifles. Perhaps that upper to lower space/slop is detrimental to precision accuracy under the recoil pulses generated by the .308 Win, which has far greater energy than the 5.56 which set new standards on the 300 KD range? Without a stable near immoveable bed for the action to index upon, is there an actual reason to be concerned with repeatable reliable precision Accuracy? A DI Stoner Style carbine doesn't jump around like the long operating rod of an M14, but a solidly bedded M14 action with a proper barrel has proven to be capable of 1/4 MOA repetitively. Is this the point of contention that we are conversing about?

 

[Snake-Eyes]

Use any number of solutions to get rid of the “slop” between upper and lower.

Free float a quality barrel.

Nice trigger.

Good glass on good mounts.

Solid stock with minimal/no movement once set, if adjustable.

“Roll your own” solid performing ammo.

Mags that feed well and don’t deform the projectile or brass.

Let us know how it goes.
Should be fun enough.

 

[Jhunter]

There will be several AMU shooters at the NRL Hunter competition this weekend at Arena Training Facility in Blakely GA. The match director is current AMU. I doubt they will be shooting gas guns. They most likely will be shooting bolt guns and they won’t be capable of .33 MOA either. Yeah they might shoot a group that small every now and again but that’s about as good as it gets.

 

[M118LR]

There will be several AMU shooters at the NRL Hunter competition this weekend at Arena Training Facility in Blakely GA. The match director is current AMU. I doubt they will be shooting gas guns. They most likely will be shooting bolt guns and they won’t be capable of .33 MOA either. Yeah they might shoot a group that small every now and again but that’s about as good as it gets.

Most of the rifle builds for NRL Hunter that are listed on The Hide seem to be 6.5, and most group sizes are in the .2 something range. Rifle rules (specs) are rather strick. Totally different game from NRA Service Rifle.

 

[Jhunter]

Most of the rifle builds for NRL Hunter that are listed on The Hide seem to be 6.5, and most group sizes are in the .2 something range. Rifle rules (specs) are rather strick. Totally different game from NRA Service Rifle.

This is what I am taking. As you can see nowhere near .2s Hopefully I can compete. I don’t even have any pics of my gas guns groups. They aren’t worthy of photos. Are we measuring group size the same way you measure groups M118LR? I measure outside edge to outside edge and subtract out for bullet diameter.

 

[seandizzie]

Again I am by no means a pro level shooter but below are some groups I shot with an Armalite Ar-15 with a 24” heavy match barrel and factory ammo. Helping a family member zero the scope for that ammo at 100y. Every photo is a different scope dial.

The big holes are a 460SW pistol…

While not the best, it was also my first time shooting this particular rifle. And the last group and where I left the zero, thos high left flyers were me… I was fatigued from shooting an Ar-10 and that 460, which i put about 40 rnds through. I feel with more practice and better ammo it could definitely maintain an inch or better.

.2 moa M-14 consistently thats a lot easier said than done.