Pondering a Scout Rifle Purchase.

[M118LR]

Pondering a .308 Win. Scout Rifle purchase primarily for hunting and recreational shooting.
Like the idea of having a removable mag. Mulling about either the M1A Scout (pew-pew-pew) or Ruger Bolt action Scout. Both of which have Long Eye Relief scope mounts, and since I've got no experience with long eye relief optics I'm asking Y'all for input. If Y'all have either how did you set up the rig? (scope, rings, etc.) Can you Co-witness the irons? Since maximum range for shots taken on either Rifle will be 300 yards, less weight may be of a higher priority than S&B clarity standards.

Thanks for your input: experience or opinions.

Dog days are here and the A/C at Shooters is attractive. LOL.

 

[Duckyou]

PSA was listening.

get this:

https://palmettostatearmory.com/springfield-armory-rifle-m1a-socom-308-win-kryptek-highlander-aa9613.html?utm_medium=email&utm_source=daily_deals&utm_campaign=20210714&utm_term=afternoon&utm_content=51486

 

[Fathertime]

My hunting rifle is a Steyr Scout in 308, I have had this rifle for 30+years and it has been one hell of a hunting gun. It’s killed numerous deer and several coyotes, and one big hog. This particular gun only likes 150 grain bullets. When I first purchased this gun it could be bought with the jeff Cooper package, scope ,gun,sling. I chose not to go that way so I put a traditional scope on it, ( here lies the problem) it was a crash coarse In scope ring heights. (Because the whole top of the gun is picatinny rail) anyway problem solved with a set of Leupold mark 4 super high rings. This scout is extremely accurate for its size,and I love knowing I have an extra magazine in the stock.

 

[SAWMAN]

Wish the SOCOM came with adjustable gas.
I'd have one. --- SAWMAN

 

[Jason]

I'm with Fathertime.....I have a Steyr Scout along with 4 other Steyr rifles so I am a Steyr snob!!!! mag fed along with a separate space in the stock fer another mag so its handy dandy!!!

 

[rkflorey]

Savage, Mossberg and Ruger make bolt action scout rifles and I have shot all three. They will all hold at or below one inch with ammo they like and will cost about $1000 with glass. Hard to beat that and they are all near Coopers standards for weight and length.

 

[Jdcujo]

I have a vortex scout scope that I picked up to get further eye relief on an encore may just have too much eye relief for what I was hoping lmao

 

[Raven]

Savage, Mossberg and Ruger make bolt action scout rifles and I have shot all three. They will all hold at or below one inch with ammo they like and will cost about $1000 with glass. Hard to beat that and they are all near Coopers standards for weight and length.

Funny, because Cooper also said that pie plate or paper plate accuracy at 100 yards every time and in every position was sufficient. Nowadays anybody can forward mount a long eye relief scope on an AR or AK or SKS for Coopers prescribed 6 pound-ish weight and length, while being well under an 8" plate at 100 yards with a .30 wide projectile, with the added benefit of being semiautomatic for only $600-$700. Times they are a changing. Devils advocate: why handicap your desire for a long eye scope and a short barrel and a detachable mag by getting it all on a bolt action? Because Cooper (RIP sir) said so 40 years ago? Just wondering what you guys think. I'm provoking thought, not a fight. I've owned quite a few scouts and I still have my favorite.

 

[M118LR]

Funny, because Cooper also said that pie plate or paper plate accuracy at 100 yards every time and in every position was sufficient. Nowadays anybody can forward mount a long eye relief scope on an AR or AK or SKS for Coopers prescribed 6 pound-ish weight and length, while being well under an 8" plate at 100 yards with a .30 wide projectile, with the added benefit of being semiautomatic for only $600-$700. Times they are a changing. Devils advocate: why handicap your desire for a long eye scope and a short barrel and a detachable mag by getting it all on a bolt action? Because Cooper (RIP sir) said so 40 years ago? Just wondering what you guys think. I'm provoking thought, not a fight. I've owned quite a few scouts and I still have my favorite.

Well as to provoking thought:

3.5 MOA was the common standard for Mil-Spec ammo/rifle combo's back in the day, and the edge of an 8 inch plate is only four inches from point of aim center of plate. Now the trouble when hunting with 8 inches @ 100 yards, is that 8 inch Deer vitals don't get to be 16 inches @ 200 yards or 24 inches @ 300 yards. So to keep that same 8 inch ratio 3.5 MOA @ 100 yards, it needs to be much closer to 1 MOA @ 100 yards for a 8 inch plate @300 yards. Now the Standing Unsupported position usually ends at 200 yards, but allot of the chaff gets separated from the wheat unsupported at 200 yards, and unsupported all shots all the time on an 8 inch plate @ 300 yards. "That's some good shooting TEX!"

Unfortunately most of the .30 projectiles loaded to less than .308 Win/7.62 x 51 velocities won't hold a Humane Hunting1000 ft lbs of energy @ 300 yards. Now the .308 Win Bolt Action Scout rifles are much closer to 6 lbs than the .308 Win Semi-automatic Scout rifles. So there is about a LB and a half handicap carrying the Semi-Scout instead of the Bolt Action Scout. Most hunting rifles get carried way more than thier shot, (Object one shot tag filled) but it's the miles it takes to get that one shot that turn ounces into pounds, and pounds into pain. Thinking can hurt. LOL

I'm beginning to think that the subtended reticle on the Burris Scout Scope BDC Reticle suits my eye more than a Vortex V Reticle. Not that I've much confidence in or use for BDC reticles, I'm just far more comfortable with a subtended reticle. Anyone have experience with both the Vortex & Burris Scout scopes as to clarity?
I've had a few Burris Scopes and they have all been fine mechanically, but you won't confuse thier clarity with an S&B. LOL.

 

[Raven]

5.73 pounds on a production line 308 AR10

 

[M118LR]

More common: https://www.colt.com/detail-page/colt-ar-15-socom-carbine-223556-161-301-knights-rail-forend When you select +Specifications 6.95 for 5.56. that is with fore-grip. But most 7.62 x 51 variants run a bit more.

How's the production run on the Roam?

 

[Raven]

More common: https://www.colt.com/detail-page/colt-ar-15-socom-carbine-223556-161-301-knights-rail-forend When you select +Specifications 6.95 for 5.56. that is with fore-grip. But most 7.62 x 51 variants run a bit more.

How's the production run on the Roam?

It's a $2500-$3000 rifle. I dont know how many are being built or when, but I wouldnt be surprised if the use of magnesium alloy like theirs really takes off and we see more brands using it for less

 

[M118LR]

So once again I had a conversation with an Friend of Old. He queried me as to what I have not done or intend to do with a Bolt Action? Last time we went to a range he got bored picking fly specs out of pepper, and wanted a better challenge pew-pew-pew. He also noted that the Small Arms Locker was currently devoid of any variant of the M14.(Strange for me) He challenged me to justify operationally another Bolt Action. ????

Getting a mite Old, loss of concentration continuously reloading & remounting 4 round box feed bolt action controlled round rifles during ten round strings unsupported at 200 yards!

Is it the reloading or remounting that is making me Old? Good Question Lee, I answered. (perplexing question)

Which is of greater importance, the weight of carry or the precision of multiple shots?
Since neither seems to be a factor on one shot kills when hunting nowadays, what difference does it make? But which will be more fun shooting ten round strings unsupported on paper at the "One way Range"?

Perhaps it should effect my purchase????????????

 

[Raven]

Think it was Hathcock said "a winded sniper isn't a sniper" which is why he not only carried a relatively lightweight rifle but also refused to wear H-harnesses and other gear, preferring to stroll around Vietnam like he was on safari. He caught some flak for it, but he was right. He could even fire in between heartbeats

 

[SAWMAN]

"SCOUT RIFLE" - -> ?? Never mind Coopers defination,his,expertiese,his expierances with shoulder fired,unsupported weapons. Of course you have most likely already done that or you would own "his" rifle,the origional Steyr Scout.
Given this - -> to most I talk to in my every day "adventures" a "scout rifle" is either/or. It is simply a any action rifle with the sometimes appropriate sight/scope mounted in front of the receiver.
To others a "scout rifle" is any long gun,with any action,in most any chambering,with some fairly inappropriate sight/scope mounted "somewhere up top".
To me - -> my dream scout gun would be one of Cooper's designs of Steyr. Chambered in 308Win (NOT NATO) OR even better his 376Steyr.
Point is - -> to most,trained or untrained,a scout gun could be just about anything,set up just about any way. Most scout rifles are shot from bench and bags,or out a shooting house window. WRONG !!
Poor ol' Jeff. All his training,expertiese,expierance,went the way of looks and "am I not just the cooliest dude in the dirtpit".
Oh well,he was just another "fudd". ---- SAWMAN

 

[SAWMAN]

How about this - -> everybody put up (in 25 words or less) your best defination of a "Scout" rifle.
Including the origional intended purpose of the gun and why the word "SCOUT".
HEY - -> I'M JUST TRYING TO LEARN HERE. --- SAWMAN

 

[Raven]

"SCOUT RIFLE" - -> ?? Never mind Coopers defination,his,expertiese,his expierances with shoulder fired,unsupported weapons. Of course you have most likely already done that or you would own "his" rifle,the origional Steyr Scout.
Given this - -> to most I talk to in my every day "adventures" a "scout rifle" is either/or. It is simply a any action rifle with the sometimes appropriate sight/scope mounted in front of the receiver.
To others a "scout rifle" is any long gun,with any action,in most any chambering,with some fairly inappropriate sight/scope mounted "somewhere up top".
To me - -> my dream scout gun would be one of Cooper's designs of Steyr. Chambered in 308Win (NOT NATO) OR even better his 376Steyr.
Point is - -> to most,trained or untrained,a scout gun could be just about anything,set up just about any way. Most scout rifles are shot from bench and bags,or out a shooting house window. WRONG !!
Poor ol' Jeff. All his training,expertiese,expierance,went the way of looks and "am I not just the cooliest dude in the dirtpit".
Oh well,he was just another "fudd". ---- SAWMAN

I have a hard time calling any US Marine from any era a "fudd", much less a Marine Corps officer, even less Cooper himself

 

[Raven]

How about this - -> everybody put up (in 25 words or less) your best defination of a "Scout" rifle.
Including the origional intended purpose of the gun and why the word "SCOUT".
HEY - -> I'M JUST TRYING TO LEARN HERE. --- SAWMAN

How far back you want to go for an original definition?

 

[M118LR]

I have a hard time calling any US Marine from any era a "fudd", much less a Marine Corps officer, even less Cooper himself

"Bolt-Action: Cooper didn’t specify any particular style of bolt-action, as long as the action was reliable and operated smoothly.
Weight: Scout rifles were to be 7 lbs. or lighter WITH the optics and sling, as the gun would need to be carried potentially for long distances in remote terrain.
Size: The scout rifle was effectively a carbine, with Cooper’s design calling for a barrel of 19 inches or less, and an overall length of 39 inches or shorter. Nowadays these shorter barrels on bolt guns are more common, but when Cooper was building the scout rifle concept, carbines were not as common or well received.
Ammunition: The scout rifle needed to be able to neutralize threats up to 1,000 lbs. with one shot with a conventional, widely available caliber. Cooper decided on the .308 round, which was to be fed by box magazine or stripper clip.
Sights: Because the scout operated alone, Cooper determined the shooter must be able to shoot with both eyes open and not compromise peripheral vision. To facilitate this, scout rifle utilized a forward-mounted low-power scope. Since optics can be damaged or fail especially in austere situations, the scout rifle should include an iron sight system, preferably a ghost ring aperture, with a front sight that wouldn’t snag on clothing or brush.
Support: The scout rifle should have some quick-loop sling; Cooper favored the Ching Sling, but any sling could be used so long as the sling could be looped up to provide support for shooting, not just carrying. Cooper also advocated for built-in bipods, which few rifles could pull off due to the added weight and heft especially when trying to keep the whole gun in a light, tight package.
Accuracy: Cooper prescribed acceptable accuracy for a scout rifle at 2 MOA (minutes of angle), wherein the user could shoot three-shot groups at four inches at 200 yards."

Age Verification - NRA

www.nrablog.com

The M1A Scout Squad (the M1A SOCOM lighter & shorter) is also included in the NRA Blog.

 

[M118LR]

So now to the crux of the biscuit. 10 rounds unsupported on an 8 inch plate @200 yards. The lightweight Mini-30 Tactical on my shoulder has no trouble accomplishing that task, but max humane hunting distance is 150 yards. I can also place ten consecutive rounds on an 8 inch plate @ 200 unsupported with with a 22 inch barreled M1ANM, but I don't have any intention of carrying it afield. Yet on my shoulder with the 30-06 18 inch barreled Ruger Guide Gun (4 in the box) 10 round strings on an 8 inch plate unsupported @ 200 yards is almost unattainable. (Thus the reloading/remounting/Bolt throwing?) So Cooper's Scout Rifle Theory seems to be quite relevant, but for actual hunting 4 in the box on target @ 200 yards repetitively on an 8 inch plate unsupported is well within the acceptable range.

As to the Sniper reference, I have many other rifles better suited to the 1K Red Cloud Range at Fort Stewart. Yet none of them would I carry afield any longer. (Surrendered to Good Times & Gravity Raven)

Just to keep things interesting I'll add a little Gunporn: