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  • M118LR

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    So I got his Big Game Rifle, and being an Old Timer my first response is that it needs a Weaver Grand Slam Scope.

    This is kind of double duty for Wildrider666, The 300 Win Mag is the long distance star of the Hawkeye Guide Gun Series. Yet the same systems that tame the 300 Win Mag turn the 30-06 into a pussycat. So what day scope would Y'all mount on a proven Big Game Rifle that shoots like a pussycat?

    For Raven: with just the irons I can stalk all day, with a 4X fixed I can sit the edge of the potato fields and be good with the 30-06. But while the 30-06 is good every where east of the Rockies, the 300 Win Mag covers everything west & north of the Rockies.

    So is 15 ounces of Leupold a better choice than 22 ounces of Weaver Grand Slam or Tactical Grand Slam?

    What are Y'all mounting on your Big Game Rifle? And where do you intend to ever use it?

    Opinions & input requested. Thanks.
     

    Raven

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    Good luck. Every 30-06 I've ever owned was a milsurp. The one scoped 300 WinMag I owned years ago in Maine was bought for $200 from a coworker who needed money and a very short time later I sold it to Cabelas for $200 because I needed the money. I'm a big fan of the new 1-8x scopes that are currently replacing some of the once-new 1-6x scopes on active duty. I think Leopold has a 1-8x now. I've never been to the Rockies or north of LA, but I imagine it would suck to come down from altitude into a tree line and have to make a close shot with anything more than a 4x optic
     
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    boatbum101

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    Have 2 rifles in 06 . One is a sporterized 1903 MK1 Springfield I've had forever it sports a Zeiss 6X fixed & has hunted all over . Other is a mid 70's Rem 700 BDL & have a Leupold VX3 3.5-10X50 on it . 03 took my largest mule deer @ 480yds .
     

    boatbum101

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    Zeiss has better coatings / light transmission , lenses etc . Edge to edge clarity / color rendition are close . For marginally better optics , twice the costs . For legal hours hunting it's a wash , lower light than that Zeiss . Europeans hunt boar at night . Leupold has better warranty . At the risk of starting a peeing contest , Leupold has never been known for its cutting edge optics . They are robust , made in the USA , & for the price good enough . Arguably the best warranty in the biz .
     
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    M118LR

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    Zeiss has better coatings / light transmission , lenses etc . Edge to edge clarity / color rendition are close . For marginally better optics , twice the costs . For legal hours hunting it's a wash , lower light than that Zeiss . Europeans hunt boar at night . Leupold has better warranty . At the risk of starting a peeing contest , Leupold has never been known for its cutting edge optics . They are robust , made in the USA , & for the price good enough . Arguably the best warranty in the biz .
    It's one of those Old Military Guy things. When the USMC had thier choice of Day Scope it was the S&B PMII, yet the Army chose Leupold for thier Day Scope. I've been very satisfied with the price vs quality of the Japanese Glass variants of Weaver Grand Slam (Tactical) but they tend to weigh more than Leupold is advertising. Zeiss is a little more wallet friendly than either my Steiner's or S&B's, but they aren't known to be lightweights.

    Bottom Line. So if I'm reading this right? For half the price of Zeiss there is little discernable difference in edge to edge clarity & color rendition during legal hunting hours (light) between it and your variable Leupold.
     

    SAWMAN

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    I own three Zeiss scopes. They are ALL the Terra line vs Conquest.
    I own about 15-18 Leupold optics. They are all <$850. Granted,I have owned most for quite some time.
    Given that - -> my favorite and IMO TRUE saying is- -> with optics ( scopes,bino's,thermal,even red/green dot sights) - -> YOU GET WHAT YOU PAY FOR.
    Plastic encased NcStar or S&B or Swaro. YOU GET WHAT YOU PAY FOR !!
    I believe that a couple of the best value optics today is Nikon and Redfield. I own three of each.
    I like Nikon for their well thought out BDC's/SPOT ON APP (ESPECIALLY the FFP series)and Redfield for their ACCUTRAC. ---- SAWMAN
     
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    SAWMAN

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    And to your above M118LR - -> you can comp for some of that with the size of objective and/tube diameter.
    However with either(especially tube diameter and max zoom) comes the OAL and weight) --- SAWMAN
    ADDED - -> AND NOT FOR HALF THE PRICE OF A TERRA LINE.
     
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    boatbum101

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    S&B's are like the Unertls tough but IMHO Swarovski / Zeiss are optically better . Speaking scopes in top of the line models . Most don't need or want a 1,600+ scope , when one costing half that does what most US hunters need . Probably a 5% difference all said & done . Objective & exit size can help make the most of lens ability to transmit usable light . My 6X Diatal has a 42mm objective which gives exit pupil of 7mm . Leupy has a 50mm , so up to 7X only variable is quality of lens / coatings . That's what costs .
     

    M118LR

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    S&B's are like the Unertls tough but IMHO Swarovski / Zeiss are optically better . Speaking scopes in top of the line models . Most don't need or want a 1,600+ scope , when one costing half that does what most US hunters need . Probably a 5% difference all said & done . Objective & exit size can help make the most of lens ability to transmit usable light . My 6X Diatal has a 42mm objective which gives exit pupil of 7mm . Leupy has a 50mm , so up to 7X only variable is quality of lens / coatings . That's what costs .
    Now Top End vs Hunting could become a matter of the quarry. So for this conversation I'll limit Hunting to 300 yard North American Game Animals.

    So my Steiner doesn't Tunnel at the low end like my S&B, and placing a color chart at the 1K line both will match the color chart sitting beside me. Picking out tiny holes in the target paper with either doesn't require a spotting scope. Unfortunately Premier has moved to Canada and I'm not familiar with the current quality of the product. Now some of the cost involved is the mechanical ability of the scope, especially as it nears the upper limit of travel. (ie 1 inch vs 30 mm vs 34-35 mm tube size allows for more precise movement and less distortion)

    But as accurately stated, most US Game Hunters won't need Top End Day Scopes to drop North American Game at or inside of 300 yards. But as a Long Range Target Shooter I've become accustomed to using Top End Glass, yet I have no intention of dropping a 3+ lb Scope on less than a 12 lb rifle. Weight is important afield. JMHO.
     

    SAWMAN

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    Tracking and repeatedly during magnification changes are also extremely important.
    ESPECIALLY given the added 300yd parameters.
    For the 300 thing a simple DUPLEX will do.
    I have learned over the years that a duplex (especially one with thick crosshairs) has three different points of referance.
    Learn them .... use them. --- SAWMAN
     

    M118LR

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    Tracking and repeatedly during magnification changes are also extremely important.
    ESPECIALLY given the added 300yd parameters.
    For the 300 thing a simple DUPLEX will do.
    I have learned over the years that a duplex (especially one with thick crosshairs) has three different points of referance.
    Learn them .... use them. --- SAWMAN
    With a 300 yard zero a .308 Win is still within Point Blank Range. Therefore simply holding to the center point of the crosshairs should place the projectile directly on target provided that the shooter does His/Her part. Even a 2 MOA Rifle/Shooter combo should place the projectile within a 6 inch circle.

    Now how you intend to range the target with a not calibrated Duplex Reticle into a sub Moa distance (2MOA @ 300 yards 6.282 inches +/- 3.14 inches= 9.422 inches.) to insure that your able to keep that circle inside of 6.282 vice 9.422 inches alludes me?

    Bottom Line: at a properly resolved 300 yard distance a 2 MOA rifle/shooter combo should be able to keep thier projectile within a 6.282 circle of impact. An ambiguity of even 1 MOA at 300 yards increases the expected impact circle to be 1.422 inches greater than the 8 inch circle required for most North American Game Animals.

    So why would I set a max range of 300 yards on North American Large Game? As we both know the Military (until recently) considered a 3 MOA Rifle/cartridge combo to be a passing grade. That is without any shooter induced error. Since 3 MOA at 300 yards is greater than an 8 inch circle, odds are even the best Military Equipped Shooter is going to have more hits outside the 8 inch circle at 300 yards than inside. I like BBQing venison neck roasts for an hour better than I like tracking them for several hours. JMHO.

    Or Y'all could make Polish Pot Roast?
     
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    SAWMAN

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    In my humble opinion you are waaaaaay overthinking this.
    Back in the day,we shot what we had. A PRU of mine could hit a little man sized target EVERY TIME,with no spotter round at 300 yds .... with a ( HIS) crappy AK. I could connect at 100 with a Korean conflict Grease Gun.
    The ROK's could quite easily put first rd on target at 200yds with their WWII .30Cal Carbine and at 300yds if issued a M14.
    Soooooo .... cannot really understand your problem and if you consider this a quandary why so complecated ????
    Just solve the problem directly without butting heads with it sir. ---- SAWMAN
     

    boatbum101

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    Personally I wouldn't have a hunting rifle that won't shoot 1.5moa or better . Hell that 03 sporter of mine is a solid 1.5 or better with loads it likes , including cast bullets ! Same with 358W , 338 Mag , 375 H&H .
     

    M118LR

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    Personally I wouldn't have a hunting rifle that won't shoot 1.5moa or better . Hell that 03 sporter of mine is a solid 1.5 or better with loads it likes , including cast bullets ! Same with 358W , 338 Mag , 375 H&H .
    Now that 1.5 MOA @ 300 yards with the rounds it likes, is it performed sitting, keeling, braced standing, prone, or off a bipod on a bench? How many rounds in the group? How much more shooter error is induced if you walk for a mile or so then perform the shooting. What is the odds of a clean cold bore shot striking within the 1.5 MOA? The calculations include rifle/cartridge/shooter combination, along with weather and other other conditions at the time of the shot. Don't forget, unlike a paper target, Game Animals may move while your shooting.

    PS; by chance does that 03 still have the original 2R barrel?
     

    SAWMAN

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    Question - -> how "Bench & Bag" accurate does a rifle have to be to be shot 75% from unsupported standing and the other 25% from a fence post,stump,or rested across a too high or too low,tree limb. And what range does your target animal have to be to attempt an ETHICAL SHOT.
    As an old world/ real world trainer/advisor,I used to simply put up a 8" paper plate. Then have the guys start shooting at it backed up by 50yd increments.
    THIS - -> UNTIL THEY COULD NOT HIT THE PLATE AFTER A TWO SHOT TRY.
    Wonder if any of the REAL WORLD hunting trainers do this anymore ??
    Worked for me. --- SAWMAN
     
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    M118LR

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    Question - -> how "Bench & Bag" accurate does a rifle have to be to be shot 75% from unsupported standing and the other 25% from a fence post,stump,or rested across a too high or too low,tree limb. And what range does your target animal have to be to attempt an ETHICAL SHOT.
    As an old world/ real world trainer/advisor,I used to simply put up a 8" paper plate. Then have the guys start shooting at it backed up by 50yd increments.
    THIS - -> UNTIL THEY COULD NOT HIT THE PLATE AFTER A TWO SHOT TRY.
    Wonder if any of the REAL WORLD hunting trainers do this anymore ??
    Worked for me. --- SAWMAN
    It's bad to begin answering a question with a question, But!
    If 75% of 100 rounds all pass through the same hole, and 25% of those rounds don't even hit the paper, perhaps it's better to hunt from a stand that allows you to use a bipod & a bag?

    Last I knew, Alaskan Guides started day one in camp by placing a milk jug 100 yards away and you got 1 shot to hit the milk jug standing unsupported with your rifle of choice.

    As to an ETHICAL SHOT, once you can perforate that 8 inch paper plate 100 out of 100 attempts from that position at that distance without fail. I'll call it ETHICAL for North American Game Animals.

    As to real World: a Deer is usually 36 inches, (outside of Southeast Asia a man is 72 inches) so what does a 400 yard shot look like without a FFP S&B PMII P4 reticle on a 36 inch deer?
     

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