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Old Age & IMR powders for the .308

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  • Hinote

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    What is the current load data for the M118lr? What I have is 42.5gr of IMR4064 175 SMK WLR primers and an OAL 2.815. That's old and I'm assuming that was when Winchester was running the show. Is that current? Or did they go back to using RL15 when ATK was running it? Why does the Army spec their velocity at 78'?
     

    M118LR

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    What is the current load data for the M118lr? What I have is 42.5gr of IMR4064 175 SMK WLR primers and an OAL 2.815. That's old and I'm assuming that was when Winchester was running the show. Is that current? Or did they go back to using RL15 when ATK was running it? Why does the Army spec their velocity at 78'?

    That's kind of a mixed question Hinote, M118LR is an antiquated loading prior to the current Winchester contract for Lake City Armory and it's a Federal Loading project in combination with Crane. Currently MK316 is in production.

    Really technical: https://www.gunsandammo.com/editorial/true-velocity-sierra-bullets-team-up-to-produce-ammo/372002

    MK316: "Cartridge, Caliber 7.62mm Special Ball, Long Range, MK 316 MOD 0 (United States): A 175-grain (11.3 g) round specifically designed for long-range sniping consisting of Sierra MatchKing Hollow Point Boat Tail projectiles, Federal Cartridge Company match cartridge cases and Gold Medal Match primers. The Propellant has been verified as IMR 4064 (per NSN 1305-01-567-6944 and Federal Cartridge Company Contract/Order Number N0016408DJN28 and has a charge weight per the specs of 41.745-grain (2.7 g).[15]"


    But MK316 Mod 0 has been superseded, so it's currently out of manufacture.

     
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    Hinote

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    If you have LC factory ammo With a headstamp marked LC LR 18 what would the spec be? The old Winchester spec that I have from 06?
     

    M118LR

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    If you have LC factory ammo With a headstamp marked LC LR 18 what would the spec be? The old Winchester spec that I have from 06?

    All the Lake City M118LR Ammo I was issued has long since passed downrange out of an air gauged barrel.

    As to what ingredients I've used to reload it, well that might not be safely included in the publications in reloading manuals.

    I can only direct you to Sniper Central: http://www.snipercentral.com/history-m118-ammunition/

    "The M118 Special Ball Long Range, more commonly known as M118LR, also went back to utilizing match cases and a press fit, not staked, primer No. 43. The powder used on the original M118LR was 44 grains of WC 750 and of course the 175gr Sierra Match King bullet is utilized. "

    But I don't recommend Ball Powders no matter how easy they flow.

    Research Hummer from Aberdeen Proving Grounds or Palma Medalist on other networks for info on the "GREAT SINS" of ball powders. JMHO. (yet I may advise that your conversations with him shall be short if you are not able to provide proper credentials as to being assigned TAD to Crane from the Navy as one of the testers/shooters. Not to mention it might be a mistake to challenge Him on the range to actual competition and seriously expect to compete, although it might be much easier today than it once was since he has survived some traumatic experiences.JMHO)

    As to your Winchester Specifications of 06, I was no longer in service with the Navy at that time. So I won't put forth the effort to blow upon the whistle. But I was expending Federal Cartridges in the Kitty Litter Box from a Navy M25 prior to your specifications of Winchester Loadings from Lake City.

    Perhaps that's why we converse about IMR?????????

    Yet you task my limited knowledge without even a shred of acknowledgement, unscrupulous!!!!!!
    How long do you think this shall continue until I blow the BS Whistle on your expertise vice actual OJT?

    Ask all the questions you like, but ask them as the inexperienced requesting knowledge. Don't pose to be one of experience demanding answers from those that have honestly been there and done that. It don't work! JMHO.

    Regardless of the opinions of all the other members that ain't been there and done that. There is is a bit of worth to actual experience. JMO even if it ain't humble.

    Hope I actually answered your loading question about LC M118LR Ammo.
     
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    Jhunter

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    If you have LC factory ammo With a headstamp marked LC LR 18 what would the spec be? The old Winchester spec that I have from 06?
    I was told by several sniper dept. instructors that the latest LC LR is loaded with RL15. This is why you get 50 FPS difference in velocity from winter to summer. I was also told that AB39 (Federal Fold Medal Match)is loaded with 4064. It shows to be a little more temperature stable. But what do I know. I have zero experience in “the sandbox” and zero on the job training. Just purchased and shot several thousand rounds of each. I will be pull a bullet from LCLR ‘16 and will be back to share weight and appearance of powder.
     

    Jhunter

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    I don’t have RL15 but the 4064 is longer and darker than what is loaded in the LCLR ‘17 and weight for the LCLR is 42.5
     

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    Baddog 0302

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    Two points;
    First, how dirty a bolt gun's Bbl. gets depends a lot on what powder is used. This started talking about using the old standards , 4064, 4895, 3031, all are considered "clean burning" as compared to RL-15, BLC2, 748,ect.
    Second, there was talk about twists, and how there was a break from the carry over standard 1-10 T to a slower and more accurate 1-11.25 / 1-12.
    that same "monkey see monkey do" [1-10 T] thinking now is prominent with the 30 BK/300 Whisper/300-221. 1-7, 1-7 , 1-7 is all you hear/find as far as AR bbl.s go. A 240 gn SMK at a sub sonic M V. might require a 1-7. 175 SMK's are happy with a 1-10 T out to BK accurate ranges
     

    Hinote

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    What the hell was the last part of that post about M118LR. I wasn't questioning anyone's expertise and I damn sure wasn't trying to act like I know more than anyone else. I was just asking a question.
     

    M118LR

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    What the hell was the last part of that post about M118LR. I wasn't questioning anyone's expertise and I damn sure wasn't trying to act like I know more than anyone else. I was just asking a question.
    Perhaps I worded it to strong, but the MK316 I used didn't have an LC head stamp. Federal had the MK316 contract and the brass had a Federal head stamp, so someone was giving you a little bum gouge. The only way that someone would know that was through actual experience.
    We all are guessing as to what the Government Testing/Proving Grounds are experimenting with to give our front line folks an advantage on the Battlefield.
    If I was a bit to much of a Curmudgeon, I apologize. (still battling the bad slaw I got with dinner last night) I hope the sample of references I listed gave you some answers, but it's the human reference to Hummer that should be the best. He has insights from Aberdeen that are mindboggling, especially when it comes to small arms loading/testing/barrel life. He also has a unique perspective about Military Shooters, as he was a Palma Medalist.
     

    TK5o

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    So my R700 with 20” barrel 1:10 twist really likes the 175gr federal smk load and gets average 2550fps mv. Does ok with 168gr smk but 175gr is better.

    Another R700 with 22” barrel and 1:12 twist (i think thats the twist) likes the 168gr smk over the 175gr load and not sure of the muzzle velocity

    question is: has anybody tried the new 169gr smk? Any load or performance data? The bc numbers are much better than either load above
     

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    Jevaughn

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    My savage 'police' 10fcp with the 1:10 heavy 18" barrel loves imr4064 and both the 168 and 175 smk. The 168gr group better at 100yds, but the 175gr smks keep a tighter group at 350yds. Haven't shot further than that with them. Doesn't shoot the Hornady eld match rounds nearly as well. I've tried varget, h4895, imr4995, benchmark, and cfe223 and 4064 just seems to be the favorite powder for that gun.

    Sent from my Pixel 5 using Tapatalk
     

    M118LR

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    5R Theory on the Remington M24:

    "Barrel: Made of 416R stainless steel. The bore twist is 1-turn-in-11.25 inches [1:285.75 mm] and the rifling is five radial lands and grooves (5-R) with a right-hand (RH) twist. Because of the odd number of lands, none of the lands are 180° apart, i.e. in direct opposition. This results in less bullet deformation, which (at least in theory) produces more consistent point of impact. In 5-R rifling, the "side" of the land is cut at a 65° angle, rather than 90° in conventional rifling. This results in less barrel fouling, and more consistent point of impact, compared to conventional rifling when relatively high numbers of rounds are fired between cleaning, as might be expected in military applications."


    "7.62 × 51mm M118LR Long Range: A 175-grain round using Sierra MatchKing Hollow Point Boat Tail projectiles.
    7.62mm M118 Long Range Performance Data:
    Muzzle velocity (nominal): 2,580 feet per second (786 m/s)
    Chamber pressure (typical): 52,000 psi (360 MPa)
    Action time (max): 4 ms
    Average horizontal spread at 1,000 metres (1,094 yd): 10.3 in (0.899 MOA)
    Average vertical spread at 1,000 metres (1,094 yd): 14 in (1.222 MOA)[10]
    According to JBM Ballistics,[11] using the G7 ballistic coefficient provided by Bryan Litz, the 7.62mm M118 Long Range 7.62×51mm NATO cartridge, when fired at its nominal muzzle velocity of 786 m/s (2,580 ft/s), should have approximately 878 metres (960 yd) supersonic range under International Standard Atmosphere conditions at sea level (air density ρ = 1.225 kg/m3).

    7.62 × 51mm MK 316 MOD 0 Special Ball, Long Range: A 175-grain round consisting of Sierra MatchKing Hollow Point Boat Tail projectiles, Federal Cartridge Company match cartridge cases and Gold Medal Match primers and an undisclosed modified extruded propellant. The 7.62 × 51mm MK 316 MOD 0 Special Ball, Long Range cartridges have an accuracy requirement based around 10-round shotgroups. The Propellant has been verified as modified version of IMR 4064 as stated in DODIC: AB39 NSN: 1305-01-567-6944.[citation needed]
    The average extreme spread for 10-round shotgroups shall be less than or equal to the following values:
    600 yd: 7.0 in (first Production Lot). This equates to a ≤ 1.1 MOA requirement at 548.6 m.
    300 yd: 3.5 in (after first Production Lot). This equates to a ≤ 1.1 MOA requirement at 274.3 m.
    The maximum muzzle velocity standard deviation is set at 15 ft/s (4.57 m/s). Information published on acceptance tests regarding five MK 316 MOD 0 cartridge production lots indicated a sub 2.4 in at 300 yd performance. This equates to a sub 0.8 MOA performance at 274.3 m for the listed ammunition lots.[12]"


    Remington 5R Milspec & Steiner Day Scope with MSR.
     

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    TK5o

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    2580 fps out of 24” barrel?? I thought it would be more. Im getting 2550 fps out of my 20” barrel with factory fgmm 175gr smk
     

    M118LR

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    2580 fps out of 24” barrel?? I thought it would be more. Im getting 2550 fps out of my 20” barrel with factory fgmm 175gr smk

    That's the spec for M118LR in LC Brass using Ball Powder.
    The muzzle velocity spec for MK316 in Federal Match Brass exceeds MAXIMUM LOAD indications in Sierra Manuals. While the load listed in the contract is below the 42.8 MAX listing for IMR 4064 in the Sierra Manual. The powder is Government Specified as Modified IMR 4064 for the MK316? Perhaps a human contact at Crane can explain what was added to increase velocity, reduce smoke, and in what ratios?

    OBTW: I can't find that 169 grain SMK on the Sierra page?

     
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    TK5o

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    That's the spec for M118LR in LC Brass using Ball Powder.
    The muzzle velocity spec for MK316 in Federal Match Brass exceeds MAXIMUM LOAD indications in Sierra Manuals. While the load listed in the contract is below the 42.8 MAX listing for IMR 4064 in the Sierra Manual. The powder is Government Specified as Modified IMR 4064 for the MK316? Perhaps a human contact at Crane can explain what was added to increase velocity, reduce smoke, and in what ratios?

    OBTW: I can't find that 169 grain SMK on the Sierra page?

    Its under the “new for 2021” section
     

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    M118LR

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    Its under the “new for 2021” section
    Wonder if they finally changed the angle on the boat tail?
    Would be interesting to discover if it performs as admirably as the 168 SMK @ the 300 yard line?


    Now about that fire formed LC M80 Brass.
    How does custom chamber fire formed Brass deviate from Military Specifications?
    Perhaps CCing the interior case dimensions might be advisable prior to stuffing powder loads into commercial or Military fire formed brass. JMHO.
    If your running a semi-automatic the paradigm is far more limited. But on an archaic Bolt Action with proper annotation, well other options (Velvet Ropes Part) become available.
    But IMR 4064 isn't my top choice for the 175 SMK. It's all about repeatable nodes and individual rifle barrels. JMHO.
     
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    M118LR

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    They measure the velocity at 78' and the spec is +/- 30FPS. I don't know why they measure it so far out but I'm sure they have a good reason.

    The projectile must reach the first screen in your chronograph before the muzzle blast or you can induce inaccuracy into your measurements. So you have to allow time for the speed of the projectile to outdistance the speed of sound to keep your screen from shaking to ensure no induced error. Long story, short version. JMHO.
     

    Baddog 0302

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    That's the spec for M118LR in LC Brass using Ball Powder.
    I know the M-80 was loaded with a ball powder, The old LC Match was loaded with a case full of an extruded powder.
    After Alliance had the contract it was rumored that they used their RL-15 or a blend that was also temperature sensitive, worked ok in bolt guns, but was really hard on M-14's brought back into service with daily temperatures in the 110+ *
     

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