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Israel / Palestinian conflict

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  • IronBeard

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    Hopefully, this time, they'll be allowed to sort it out on their own. Let it be what it's gonna be.
     

    PaulT

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    Sending U.S. funds to the Palestinians is no different then sending funds/aid to Somali. Everybody knows damn well the vast majority of of funds/aid ends up in the hands of power who "actually control" the Country, Territory or Land. Corruption, skimming, diversion or by force it boils down to very little goes where the U.S. intends it to go.

    Refresh recent and past history, Muslim Sects will bestow all the horrors they can on other muslims just because of slight differences in muslim beliefs. They kill each other as insignificantly as the would kill Jews and Christians, it's nothing new. Stronger countries have always used smaller ones or "groups" to do their dirty work, the U.S. is no different.

    If the subject issue was about religion/ethnic/race and it actually was an intolerable issue to Arab/Muslim Countries: they would have mounted a larger coalition and won formal Wars and taken the Land long ago. All that oil money could have built several superior armies but they didn't. Their Oil has been used as leverage on countries to sway support away from Israel. Israel did build a great military and continues to do so; the suspicion that they have Nukes and tested them: stands as a major deterrent too. Several countries that opposed Israel (all reasons & conflict) have changed positions finding peace more profitable and less costly in military expenditures.

    Is the subject reason about the Land itself? No, thats just something to bitch about to the current possessor/gov. Hardly a unique issue s the Land has been controlled by more different hands than a porn mag at a FOB. Lol. The apparent longest "custodian" through out documented history is Egypt. It's note worthy that Egypt fought Israel and lost the Gaza Strip. Jordan fought and lost the West Bank. Both of those countries are currently at peace with Israel. Odd there was no "Palestinian push back" against the Egyptian or Jordanian masters. Religion falls behind a more unified title of "Arab Control" which sought to remove invaders like the Turks and then colonizers like the Brits and French. Back in 1917 there were attempts to create a National Jewish State and more specifically that Palestine was not and would never be under Arab Control per multiple Agreements. "Palestine" is also claimed as the land including Jordan but they don't launch rockets into Jordan do they? The Philistines/Palistine did not even exist under those terms from Roman times until after WWI. "Palistine" was resurected after WWI specifically to be the "New Israel" and both those nams in quotes were interchangeable in documents with Jewish preference for the latter taking precedence. The Arabs long hatred for Jews was amplified by "Not in my Neighborhood" mentality but they had given up the territory long before 1948 and knlw moves to create the Jewish State we well known back in 1916! So the only Arab option was for some other entity to make claims on what was to be Israel: from the centuries old (Roman times) grave, "Palestinians" claim to exist and want Land they never controlled as a Country "back". In persoective, this is like Vikings claiming ownership of North America.

    The notion of Palestinian "Claims" of ownership of the disputed lands are unfounded when they have never had a sovereign Palestinian Country! Even the 1988 State of Palestine is legally disputed as was the PLO's 1974 State in Exile.

    Let's ignore the above and focue on the physical conflict which rars its ugly head every 8 to 8 months. There's a recognized Palestinian Authority with jurisdiction over land that harbors and protects terrorists is being used to launch multiple types of attacks on a Sovereign County. Israel will do as it's always done with defensive and offensive attacks against the offending region, making such transgressions more painful every time. Let the chips fall where they may because the initiator was the first to kick the table.
    facts facts and more facts
     

    FrommerStop

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    wildrider666 said:


    Sending U.S. funds to the Palestinians is no different then sending funds/aid to Somali. Everybody knows damn well the vast majority of of funds/aid ends up in the hands of power who "actually control" the Country, Territory or Land. Corruption, skimming, diversion or by force it boils down to very little goes where the U.S. intends it to go.

    ...........................

    Click to expand...

    At the level of the state department, they privately know the facts on where that money goes or is not going. These are games the diplomats and also politicians play. It is the same game that gun companies in antigun states have played.
    There is a large name gun company in Maryland, that was donating a very modest amount to the campaign of an antigun government. The explanation they were giving unofficially to the pro-gun media was that it gave them access to the governor. This meant they could present their point of view. Does not mean he/she/or what ever would vote their way, but still access was there. There are many issues and perhaps on neutral issues the governor might listen.
    There is some of that at the diplomatic level, but there also is competition with the Russians and Chinese for influence. Is this always a wise policy to give money to less than worthy governments? I do not know.


     

    skippyt

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    Why would they accept the crumbs offered? Israel took the best land and most of the water access. Let's try to put it this way.

    You and your family have been living on this farm for generations, it's not much, but it's your, you bury your dead here, you toil the fields and pretty much just mind your own busisness. For ages, the area has been under the control of different local governments, all require taxes but mostly leave you alone. Suddenly the last government in charge comes and says your farm is no longer yours, it's now to be for this other family based on the fact that 30 generations ago their ancestors dwelled there.

    They come in heavily armed and with external support. They tell you to pack your shit and move to the bad half of the farm, they take control of the little shrine you pray in, access to the river and the graveyard. You try to resist but they are heavily armed and have vicious hounds. You commit arson, fight, etc. Your neighbors try to help you but they are repelled despite vicious fighting. In the end, your neighboors despite being on your side start having working relationships with the new owners or making peace at the behest of the local politicians. Meanwhile the new owners take more and more of your half under security pretenses or to build a new barn or a guesthouse. Suddenly they offer to sign an accord and legalize whatever is left you control into the property registry. No hard feelings?

    Idk, I'd be pretty pissed if that happened to me. Combine it with islam and voila. It's not a white and black issue of israel good, arabs bad.


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    Pretty sure you've just covered every occupation from hostile forces since records began, even here in the states with the indigenous American Indians!!

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    General Snafu

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    Anyone can cherry pick a date and state that is THE DEFINING POINT OF REFERENCE or moral high ground. By that logic the Brits should still control the American Colonies and Lands or Native Americans own the U.S. On the Lavant, go back 4000 years and start with the Canaanites and work you way to present day. Like every piece of dirt that a flags stuck in: it's a matter of who conquered it last or who the conquerors gave that land to. This brings us to the Creation (actually re-creation) of Israel in 1948.

    I'm suprised biden hasn't officially told the Palestinians to come to the U.S. and set up shop.
    Watch what you say. If Joe hears you, those people will be on the next boat.
     

    M118LR

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    Just how many years has Israel refrained from the complete eradication of Palestine from the Gaza Strip? How many rockets are going to land in your backyard before you demand an end to the pestilence? What would we do if Mexico & Canada where launching rockets of destruction into America? Let Israel defend their Homeland without political boundaries. We would! JMHO.
     

    General Snafu

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    Literally fake news.

    The palestinians were there along local jews and others. Then after ww2 European jews came and started settling, violence broke right away even before the British left. Then the first arab israeli war was in 1948! Back when it still was a deserted wasteland.

    Ofc with American military backing and treasure they bought off everyone they could and toppled whoever didn't go with the plan. Before Israel dragged us along, America had no enemies on the middle east. If it was up to me, let jews and muslims fight it out without us sending either side a single nickle or shedding a single drop of blood. I guarantee israelis would be much more cooperative then instead of the local bully thanks to our support and treasure.

    It always amuses me how much propaganda people eat on this issue.

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    I think one of the major flaws is, neither side ever give enough credit to the customs and history of their enemy. We, the US has gotten our asses handed to us quite a few times because we repeatedly underestimate our enemy. Does anyone think that our troops and their leaders know anymore about our enemies than, we're supposed to destroy them. It's that lack of knowledge that gets us in trouble. We did it when entering the Vietnam War, We did it again, when entering The Iraq War and the conflict with Afghanistan. These people are all used to hardship and are hardened fighters. We need to understand the mentality of our enemy but time and time again, we make no effort to do so.

    While pulling TDY in Libya, training pilots to kill Vietnamese, a Major was welcoming some newly arrived troops. He mentioned that at the time, Libya was being ruled by King Idris, a very moderate Arab. Someone in the group asked the Major if he would be so kind as to give the group a definition of a moderate Arab. The Major replied, A moderate Arab is one who only holds a grudge for eight generations. With that, he hit the nail directly on the head. Anyone who spent as much time in Arab lands as I did, would understand the truth in the Major's reply. And that, is why the Palestinians will never be defeated unless, Israel kills every single one of them, Man, woman and child. Much like The Hatfields and The McCoys, the Arabs will not cease until they are all dead or, this planet is nothing but dust.
     

    M118LR

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    I think one of the major flaws is, neither side ever give enough credit to the customs and history of their enemy. We, the US has gotten our asses handed to us quite a few times because we repeatedly underestimate our enemy. Does anyone think that our troops and their leaders know anymore about our enemies than, we're supposed to destroy them. It's that lack of knowledge that gets us in trouble. We did it when entering the Vietnam War, We did it again, when entering The Iraq War and the conflict with Afghanistan. These people are all used to hardship and are hardened fighters. We need to understand the mentality of our enemy but time and time again, we make no effort to do so.

    While pulling TDY in Libya, training pilots to kill Vietnamese, a Major was welcoming some newly arrived troops. He mentioned that at the time, Libya was being ruled by King Idris, a very moderate Arab. Someone in the group asked the Major if he would be so kind as to give the group a definition of a moderate Arab. The Major replied, A moderate Arab is one who only holds a grudge for eight generations. With that, he hit the nail directly on the head. Anyone who spent as much time in Arab lands as I did, would understand the truth in the Major's reply. And that, is why the Palestinians will never be defeated unless, Israel kills every single one of them, Man, woman and child. Much like The Hatfields and The McCoys, the Arabs will not cease until they are all dead or, this planet is nothing but dust.

    Any Idea why Moses was supposed to put all Israel's enemies to the sword?
    In that geographical location nits grow to lice, the seventh son of the seventh son is gifted. Peace shall not reign until the area is made of glass. JMHO.
     

    General Snafu

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    DUDE...

    Now Your Talking

    Frankly,,,I'd like to see 95% of ALL foreign aid Ended...Including Israel
    All Welfare for Illegals Ended.
    NO MORE dual citizenship Members in Congress.
    Only America First Members in Congress..........ie.. No One who is for the chinese communist party ,russians or Ukranians,,ect... I have NO problem with Patriots of any other country doing what is best for THEIR COUNTRY.
    USa Not doing regime changes in other countries ..ie propping up Dictators with Our Money,,,ie foreign aide..

    Leave Israel alone... imo... There would be a bloodbath....and imo Israel would grow even larger over there..maybe ,,maybe not.

    Making Friends and Allies??? ehhhhhhhhhhhh..... Only IF ,When, They Pay their own way......... Work together? Protect ,,IF our Friend..? sure... PAY THEM TO BE OUR MERCENARIES AND PROXIES...NOFUKNWAYanymore.

    sick of seeing Large countries..Bribing Dictators in small countries to wage war for us against Larger Enemies via their proxies...SUX,,SUX,,SUX
    I'd like to modify one of your points by revising it to read as follows:
    NO MORE dual citizenship Members in Congress or as employees of any US government entity.
     

    FrommerStop

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    Just how many years has Israel refrained from the complete eradication of Palestine from the Gaza Strip? How many rockets are going to land in your backyard before you demand an end to the pestilence? What would we do if Mexico & Canada where launching rockets of destruction into America? Let Israel defend their Homeland without political boundaries. We would! JMHO.

    So some think the Jews should use lessons learned from the Nazis of WWII to deal with arabs. They will use those atomic weapons only if they are being faced with extermination. The current rockets have not killed many in Israel. The number of killed arabs is greater, but Hamas has no problems with dead arabs since they are more useful as martyrs than alive.
    The arabs can get defeated again and again. The Jews can only lose once.
    Edit to add:
    if Mexico & Canada where launching rockets of destruction into America?
    Poncho Villa attack into the USA and General Pershing and a young officer by the name of Pattern crossed the border to deal with it.Pancho Villa Expedition -

    Pancho Villa Expedition - Wikipedia

    https://en.wikipedia.org › wiki › Pancho_Villa_Expediti...





    From March 20 to March 30, as the 11th Cavalry arrived in Columbus by train from Fort Oglethorpe, Georgia, and then forced marched into Mexico, Pershing
    We did not do any significant extermination of the population in Mexico.
     
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    M118LR

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    So some think the Jews should use lessons learned from the Nazis of WWII to deal with arabs. They will use those atomic weapons only if they are being faced with extermination. The current rockets have not killed many in Israel. The number of killed arabs is greater, but Hamas has no problems with dead arabs since they are more useful as martyrs than alive.
    The arabs can get defeated again and again. The Jews can only lose once.
    Edit to add:

    Poncho Villa attack into the USA and General Pershing and a young officer by the name of Pattern crossed the border to deal with it.Pancho Villa Expedition -

    We did not do any significant extermination of the population in Mexico.
    Total eradication didn't even work during biblical times, perhaps it would be better if Hamas could find a land filled with milk & honey outside of Israel for Arabs?
     

    FrommerStop

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    Total eradication didn't even work during biblical times, perhaps it would be better if Hamas could find a land filled with milk & honey outside of Israel for Arabs?
    In the past many times it has worked quite well for those that did it and not so well for those that got eradicated.
    The mongols eradicated many muslim cities in the middle east. War crimes charges are mostly for the losers. What hurt the mongols was that they took muslim women for bed partners and their offspring were raised muslim. Ended up with the turkic elements of the mongol forces getting converted to that religion.
     

    FrommerStop

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    Here is the throat cutting burgle music. It was played when the spanish armies fought muslims and no quarter was to be given. It was played at the alamo.

     

    skyydiver

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    Total eradication didn't even work during biblical times, perhaps it would be better if Hamas could find a land filled with milk & honey outside of Israel for Arabs?

    But wait, the Arab nations won’t take them either. Why not?


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    Big Shrek

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    Precisely. The Palestinians are engaged in an insurgency against an occupying foreign power. As an asymmetric conflict tempered with a dash of islamic Fundamentalism, they use whatever tactics they can to hit back against Israel's overwhelming supremacy (funded by OUR tax dollars, which i certainly don't approve) and the massive power of the israeli lobby overseas.

    Kinda like the US war of independence, or the vietnamese against the french, then us, or the afghans and chechens against the russians, spanish against the french or other countless examples. That's what an insurgency looks like, one side has the conventional power, the other whatever they can use.

    And one thing i find amusing is that a lot of people who parrot the israel has a right to defend itself line tend to also parrot how they would resist the tyranny of the govt if it came to that. Guess what, it wouldn't be tiddy and heroic. It would be very similar to what you see in the gaza strip, the govt using conventional power and the rebels fighting with terror or whatever means they have to avoid being wiped out.

    I believe that if it comes to that, it would be a very nasty and bloody affair, with atrocities and war crimes on both sides, and the wining side claiming the moral high ground. See how msm treats whites under the guise of "white supremacy" and see how it treats isreael under the guise of "just defending itself" notice similarities?

    Israel has been overreaching and encroaching Palestinian territories and reacting with overwhelming, excessive force against the palestinian militias/terror attacks which in turn cause more resentment amongst the arabs. Israel has been using heavy conventional bombs to demolish palestinian high rise living blocks under the pretense of hitting suspectes hamas targets.

    Do Israelis have a right to defend themselves? Yes. Do palestinians have a legitimate beef with israel? Yes. It's a rather murky and grey on grey affair with the palestinians coming slightly ahead.

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    Except Palestine is actually nothing more than a Syrian Construct.
    To quote the President of Syria right after Palestine was created,
    "Palestine is Syria and Syria is Palestine." It was nothing more than
    a Syrian Foothold created after the Seven Days War as an excuse for
    more fighting. That's all.
     

    FrommerStop

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    Total eradication didn't even work during biblical times, perhaps it would be better if Hamas could find a land filled with milk & honey outside of Israel for Arabs?
    Well at one time those were rich lands. but not anymore. The arabs will not rest until the entire holy land is once more controlled by muslims. A hundred year is not a lot of time to such people and time is on their side. The whites in Rhodesia and the Boers in South Africa were never defeated in battle by the indigenous africans and yet they lost power when big western countries told them to step down and they did. Deals were made.

    I doubt that the Israelis were pleased by the photo below.

    1621715252735.png
     

    Big Shrek

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    If any more Baptists move into my neighborhood, I think we may have to start a holy war against them. And that Church of Christ around the corner is just too close to my house. Gonna need to source some rocket launchers to stop their spread.

    Those people in the Middle East have been killing each other for centuries. Nothing we do will stop that. We should not be feeding the violence in any way. Keep US out!

    Even funnier when you know that the Church Of Christ is a Baptist offshoot,
    created when a division occurred over Instrumental Music during services.
    The Hard-line C.O.C. maintains that "Since it is not mentioned in the
    New Testament, it must not be done in services!", on that and a few other issues.
    A recent Schism locally involving Gateway C.O.C. ended up creating yet another
    offshoot over the use of Acoustic Guitars in NON-Worship Coffee House settings.

    If you want a really great look at how & why Churches schism and branch off, read
    Terry Pratchtett's, "Small Gods". He absolutely NAILS it, going all the way back
    to Calvin. Although, if you don't have a sense of humor...


    The most compelling argument to keep the US in the Israel conflict is simply this.
    If the Muslims ever win, all the Christian places of importance will be utterly destroyed.
    Their idea of "Cancel Culture" is to dynamite any religious buildings, statues, etc...
    then rebuild a brand new Mosque on the remains of that important place.
    The "Dome of the Rock" mosque is built on top of the Temple Mount, which was the
    Main Jewish Temple for well over a thousand years...So you can see why the Jews
    are peeved at Muslims about the takeover. See also the history of the "Wailing Wall".

    Or heck, just do a Wiki search on...

    Conversion of non-Islamic places of worship into mosques​

    Pretty decent article, but it's by no means complete.
     

    Big Shrek

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    So by that logic, since israel keeps bombing palestine, another equally acceptable solution would be for an arab coalition to bomb israel into oblivion, kill every fighting age man, flatten every sacred site and ship the survivors back to the west or into camps. Which means the fundamentalist muslim claims for the destruction of israel are valid

    And by that same thinking, I now call forth another crusade, to drive both jews and muslims out of the holy land, destroy every synagogue and mosque, kill anyone who resists and drive the survivors into the desert in order to rebuild the crusader states and retake jerusalem in the name of our lord. God wills it! View attachment 119003

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    Israel only bombs Palestine after Palestine commits a rocket attack or uses suicide bombers
    to blow up commuter busses or buildings. It's called "Measured Response"...however, looks
    like Netinyahu has decided the go with the more intense "Alright you buggers, knock it off!" response.
    Which, honestly, we should have used on Mexico years ago.


    Now...as to why the "Arab Coalition doesn't try full-out war again?
    Really simple. Yes, Israel has NUKES. And they are registered as pointing at Mecca, Medina,
    the Temple Mount, and about 5 other major Islamic sites, and also the Capitols of all the
    surrounding Muslim countries. That's why there is never an all-out war there. The Islamists
    know that the "Dead Man's Switch" will most certainly be thrown if Israel is ever over-run.

    nukes work.jpg
     
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    edruken

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    Y'all making it real hard to keep the politics out of this and not barge right back in

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