IMPORTANCE OF BRASS - ->

[SAWMAN]

Importance or brass to the reloa

der is never more prevelent as when you are trying for the best your firearm is capesble of.
Not so much for the pistol shooter unless you shoot competition or 14"bbl'ed T/C type "rifle" stuff. I have a Lone Eagle 16" pistol,chambered in 243Win that is extremely sensative to the brass I use.
Going thru my extensive mixed brass supply,I came up with some "pretty" stuff to expierament with in my 308Win BERGARA bolt gun.
It was all nickle plated (yep,we still call it "brass" ) but some was the Win brand and the other was the Fed brand. Started weighing it on my little(fast and accurate) scale and realized why I do these "extra" steps in my precission reloading.
Take note of the difference in weight. All this brass was once fired. Primer in. Cases were all between 2.014 and 2.016". If the outside matches your chamber deminsions why so much difference in weight ??
Gotta be internal deminsions. IOW - -> CASE CAPACITY !! This will directly effect - - -> LOAD DENSITY ... INTERNAL PRESSURE ... SD ... and most importantly ... VELOCITY.
TAKE A LOOK, IF APPLICABLE TO YOUR LOADING HABITS- -> WEIGH THAT BRASS. The 180 is the Fed,the 164 is the Win.--- SAWMAN

 

[Plinker]

Good post Bill!

 

[bowfreak]

The internal volume variations can be midigated by using only the same brand and lot number (really important). When it's time to replace brass, replace all of it at once and redevelop your load because internal volume will be different than it was

 

[Bowhntr6pt]

Good post... some swear by separating their brass... bullets too.

IMO... what you want is to separate your brass based in INTERNAL VOLUME via weight, not overall case weight.

Weigh an empty case, use an eye dropper or syringe to carefully fill the case with water and re-weigh.

Here is an example I did when selecting cases for my TAC 30 load development as pressure was an issue with commonly used loads in a like barrel:

Empty Weight Water Fill Weight Difference

Empty Filled Volume/Difference

1. 124.6 159.0 34.4
2. 126.5 160.6 34.1
3. 126.5 160.9 34.4
4. 124.5 159.1 34.6
5. 126.3 160.8 34.5
6. 124.6 159.0 34.4
7. 124.4 158.7 34.3
8. 124.5 159.1 34.6
9. 124.2 158.6 34.4
10.126.4 160.8 34.4

As you can see, overall weight can be misleading. Compare #9 and #10... the empty weights, a 2.2gr difference, suggests an internal volume difference... but actual internal volume is the same, 34.4grs water.

Look at #3 the heaviest, and #9 the lightest, both have the same internal volume as determined by water weight.

Your thoughts?

 

[Jhunter]

I see a lot of effort going into sorting brass by weight. I realize buying 50 cases and separating by match weight would only take 20 minutes or so but why? This would be a must for chasing world records but not many of us here are capable. I’m shooting a competition this Saturday and my load is producing a 7 SD from unsorted brass. Targets will be out to 1100 yards. At that distance the target will be a full size IPSIC. My kestrel says if I miss it’s not due to velocity because the ES of 15 won’t show at that distance. I find shooting over an accurate chrono to be the best tool for chasing accuracy. When developing a load look for the velocity flat spots and back off a .1 or .2 from the top end of that node. Don’t mix headstamps and you will be capable of hitting all targets within the effective range of your rifle.

 

[Bowhntr6pt]

I see a lot of effort going into sorting brass by weight. I realize buying 50 cases and separating by match weight would only take 20 minutes or so but why? This would be a must for chasing world records but not many of us here are capable. I’m shooting a competition this Saturday and my load is producing a 7 SD from unsorted brass. Targets will be out to 1100 yards. At that distance the target will be a full size IPSIC. My kestrel says if I miss it’s not due to velocity because the ES of 15 won’t show at that distance. I find shooting over an accurate chrono to be the best tool for chasing accuracy. When developing a load look for the velocity flat spots and back off a .1 or .2 from the top end of that node. Don’t mix headstamps and you will be capable of hitting all targets within the effective range of your rifle.

Yep... some start down the rabbit hole and quickly do a U-turn when the juice isn't worth the squeeze.

I did the above check only because a guy was using Quick-Load software to help me determine loads for my TAC 30, which is a wildcat, and needed accurate info.

Uniforming primer pockets, separating brass by weight, deburring flash holes, trimming and uniforming meplats, turning case necks, the list goes on.

For some it's just part of the "precision pursuit process" and hobby where every possible variable can be addressed, both for "fun" as well as anticipated rewards. More so for the guys who shoot the kind of 5-shot groups that look like only two bullets touching, or require a moving roll of paper behind the target to ascertain if a specific amount of rounds were fired.

Apples and oranges when it comes to extreme accuracy/rifle performance vs. hitting man-size targets at 1K. But for most of us, me included, the latter is all I need vs, the former so other than sorting brass by headstamp and times fired, I don't waste my time or energy with other techniques.

IMO... pure accuracy/target shooting is worlds apart from what I call "utility shooting" where hitting variable MOA targets at distance is the name of the game. Not saying great accuracy isn't required, but "true peak accuracy" generally isn't.

Good luck on your match, I hope you do well.

 

[SAWMAN]

Brass should be within 3grs empty weight.
That is - -> sized,cut to OAL,no primer.
I have found that BASICALLY - -> FED IS HEAVY - > WIN AND REM ARE USUALLY WITHIN THE 3gr RULE - -> WCC67 IS HEAVIEST - -> TW73 NEXT LIGHTEST - -> LC72 MATCH NEXT LIGHTEST BUT MUCH MORE THAN "CIVILIAN" BRASS.
I have the weight figures logged if anyone needs them. ADMITTEDLY I AM Bruce 2.0 !! ---- SAWMAN

 

[FrankT]

Thank you for your knowledge and expertise Sawman and the kindness to share it.

 

[SAWMAN]

AND - -> they were right .... black bullets DO matter ... black is beautiful .... etc,etc. --- SAWMAN
????? -----> TIME AND 414 MAGIC MARKERS WERE INVOLVED.

 

[Raven]

AND - -> they were right .... black bullets DO matter ... black is beautiful .... etc,etc. --- SAWMAN
????? -----> TIME AND 414 MAGIC MARKERS WERE INVOLVED. View attachment 128117 View attachment 128118

Why? Is there a benefit other than the color? I've seen coated and lubed projectiles before, so don't get me wrong. I am open to new ideas. Is there something I haven't heard of before now about black markers?

 

[Raven]

I see a lot of effort going into sorting brass by weight. I realize buying 50 cases and separating by match weight would only take 20 minutes or so but why? This would be a must for chasing world records but not many of us here are capable. I’m shooting a competition this Saturday and my load is producing a 7 SD from unsorted brass. Targets will be out to 1100 yards. At that distance the target will be a full size IPSIC. My kestrel says if I miss it’s not due to velocity because the ES of 15 won’t show at that distance. I find shooting over an accurate chrono to be the best tool for chasing accuracy. When developing a load look for the velocity flat spots and back off a .1 or .2 from the top end of that node. Don’t mix headstamps and you will be capable of hitting all targets within the effective range of your rifle.

Good to know. Had me wondering

 

[SAWMAN]

I belonged to Capitol City Gun Club in Augusta,Maine for a few years. I joined to LEARN from the pro's that shot competition BENCHREST there.
The competition consisted of 5,5 shot groups combined to get the smallest combined group using the combo of 25 shots.
These guys posted the aggregate of .150" and under.
I bothered the sheet outta the pro's to gain the most knowledge possible from my 80 mile drive.
One of the first things I noticed is that many of them used different headstamped brass. But all civilian OR all military.
They made a point to weight the bullets used and micro the OAL length and diameter. I do not rememer the existance of a bullet comparator back then but they probably made their own as most of the better comp shooters also had training as a machinist.
I shot some competitions but did not even place.
In those days I shot Savage 110 action with a Shaw bbl chambered in 308Win. It was 20 inches long with a 12 twist.
My best aggregate score was in the bottom of the .2??'s as I remember.
FUN TIMES ... AND I MANAGED TO LEARN ALOT that I use in my everyday shooting,reloading,and hunting. --- SAWMAN

 

[Raven]

I belonged to Capitol City Gun Club in Augusta,Maine for a few years. I joined to LEARN from the pro's that shot competition BENCHREST there.
The competition consisted of 5,5 shot groups combined to get the smallest combined group using the combo of 25 shots.
These guys posted the aggregate of .150" and under.
I bothered the sheet outta the pro's to gain the most knowledge possible from my 80 mile drive.
One of the first things I noticed is that many of them used different headstamped brass. But all civilian OR all military.
They made a point to weight the bullets used and micro the OAL length and diameter. I do not rememer the existance of a bullet comparator back then but they probably made their own as most of the better comp shooters also had training as a machinist.
I shot some competitions but did not even place.
In those days I shot Savage 110 action with a Shaw bbl chambered in 308Win. It was 20 inches long with a 12 twist.
My best aggregate score was in the bottom of the .2??'s as I remember.
FUN TIMES ... AND I MANAGED TO LEARN ALOT that I use in my everyday shooting,reloading,and hunting. --- SAWMAN

I might have shot with some of the same guys there. That's cool. I have at least one of them headed this way to south Alabama when he retires. He won't give up his binary trigger for Florida

 

[FrankT]

has anyone used these guys, seem really good

Sage's Reloading Supply

Sage's Reloading Supply Seattle WA

www.sagesreloadingsupply.com

 

[SAWMAN]

I have Frank. Been a member of the forum for a couple years.
Found several good deals on once fired brass. Some expieranced reloaders hang out there.
My brass was delivered in a timely manner and was better than advertised.
His pistol brass is excellent. Watch for his deals on "pulls". ---- SAWMAN

 

[Jester896]

Weigh an empty case, use an eye dropper or syringe to carefully fill the case with water and re-weigh.

when checking for volume...do you turn a primer upside down...or do you just use the random fired primers as they were in the case?

 

[Bowhntr6pt]

when checking for volume...do you turn a primer upside down...or do you just use the random fired primers as they were in the case?

Fired primer

 

[Jester896]

it would seem to me if it was getting down to this much precision, that it would be best to only measure case volume instead of the possible variation from measuring the random volume of different fired primers. it almost seems just as accurate as only measuring case weight.

 

[SAWMAN]

Weighing cases for precission,here is how I do it - -> Same brand of brass ... fired in same( precission) gun ... OAL trimmed to MAX ... no primer ... primer pocket cleaned using a primer pocket uniformer tool ... flash hole deburred using a specific tool ... cases clean and shiny from "over" tumbling.
Then the weight MUST be within 1.5grs of each other.
Each piece of brass is slowly/gently closed in the intended guns chamber. This is a "feel" thing. When doing this,I check for several things. ---- SAWMAN

Just me,YMMV.
Even at my advanced age,with degraded eyesight,I have shot some great groups with several "precission" guns. --- SAWMAN

 

[Jhunter]

it would seem to me if it was getting down to this much precision, that it would be best to only measure case volume instead of the possible variation from measuring the random volume of different fired primers. it almost seems just as accurate as only measuring case weight.

But one also needs to ask how to measure the results of this tedious extra step. On paper with group size or with a chronograph? If a zero SD was the goal I would hit the easy button and shoot a 6mm BR or variant of and skip all the brass prep.