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Creedmoor vs .308 (bolt action)

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  • Bowhntr6pt

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    Loading a bi-pod on a truck hood, or any other slick surface, is easy... just use a sling. Connect the ends of the sling to each leg, wrap the sling behind your elbow, and press into it.
     

    M118LR

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    So let me see if I'm processing this correctly? We are about to take a 600 yard shot from atop the hood of our truck, (isn't there something about shooting within 500 yards of a road?) so now we are debating what the best rest is to accomplish such a feat?

    Somehow my truck hasn't been within a quarter mile of the spot that I started hunting in for years. Y'all want to let me on your technique? Seems that stalking takes a backseat to driving? JMHO. Wouldn't it just be easier to run them over with your vehicle? Is there a limit to road kill? Don't remember having to tag any critter that I hit with the truck? Sounds sporting to me! Wonder how many critters in the freezer are going to have a FORD OVAL on thier side? LOL LOL LOL
     
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    SAWMAN

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    The longest shot that i have taken off my hood was with my home made bag,Win Mod 70XTR,handloaded162gr BTHP,4-14 Leupold with target turrets.
    Shot was on a coyote at just over 500yds as per laser.
    Shot about 50 critters off the hood of my various pickup trucks. Longest after that was just under 400yds. Most,by far was <300.
    In Maine it is illegal to be resting your gun or body on a vech when shooting at a animal.
    I did have permission from our local warden,to shoot from my vech while sighting in or doing load workup,out at a shale pit. ---- SAWMAN
     

    Jester896

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    So let me see if I'm processing this correctly?
    I am not sure you are processing correctly from my view.

    I think the correct distance from the road in my location is 50 yards from our DNR regs. I have never heard 500 until today.

    If I park my truck at the pivot head an average shot to the wood line is about 600 yards for most large circular pivots. Yes, it is still hunting. Where did you obtain the information that stalking or even sitting in a deer stand in the trees is the only form of hunting?

    If you do use your truck to kill a deer on the road and leave it in the ditch you don't have to record/tag it as a harvest. It may be illegal outside of hunting season to harvest the deer you knocked into the ditch. I don't know a farmer alive that will allow you to use a truck in their field to chase down deer or across their crops for that matter. The Ford Oval with most likely cause some blood shock to the meat in that area and more than likely you would want to throw that damaged area out.
     

    M118LR

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    Well it seems that there is some ambiguity as to hunting harvesting from atop your truck hood. There may also be some regulations as to how close you can be to a Church or other Public Gathering space while stalking afoot? Now attempting a shot of more than 200 yards while standing may be folly to folks walking on the earth, perhaps shooting sticks, trees, fences, stands, etc that offer a solid rest may improve your ability to the 300 yard mark? It seems like a stretch to justify attempting a shot beyond point blank range of your rifle/cartridge combo to me? JMHO.

    Can it be done. Sure. Should it be attempted? Ethically, no! No matter how many times it's been performed on paper prior to taking that shot! JMHO. YMMV.
     

    M118LR

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    500yards ???
    Uhhhhhh ..... NO !! ---- SAWMAN
    It has been done, and more. But should it have been attempted? On two legged varmints probably, on four legged critters only if two legged varmints got to go HOME to thier families. JMHO. Perhaps it's time to declare that I have made such shots in the past. But that was strictly upon Government Orders. Not to mention I wasn't harvesting the game I took the shot upon. Wink-Wink, nod-nod.
     
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    Jester896

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    just for a reference for you...we..2 spotters and one shooter...took a deer at 606 yards. There were no churches or public gatherings in sight from the field. We had been banging steel at 500 yards when the deer came out at what looked like 75 yards to the left of the steel. I was on the LRF and couldn't get a reading on the target...light issues I assume. We sent a round base on the shooters MOA reading...shooter new to ranging with a reticle...the guy on the spotting scope didn't see trace or impact but I saw the impact in the branches behind the deer with the 6X LRF. He called the adjustment to the shooter and sent the round. We were shooting SMKs...deer was quartering away...the bullet entered between the rib cage and the ham. A small portion of the bullet fraged and was under the skin in front of the opposing ham. The remainder exited the front shoulder..went into the neck...then out the other side of the neck...DRT. I know...you aren't supposed to use Match Bullets for hunting...but they will work. I know it was 606 because I went to the deer and ranged back to the other truck in the field.

    psst...I think he was talking about 500 from the road...just my best guess
     

    M118LR

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    just for a reference for you...we..2 spotters and one shooter...took a deer at 606 yards. There were no churches or public gatherings in sight from the field. We had been banging steel at 500 yards when the deer came out at what looked like 75 yards to the left of the steel. I was on the LRF and couldn't get a reading on the target...light issues I assume. We sent a round base on the shooters MOA reading...shooter new to ranging with a reticle...the guy on the spotting scope didn't see trace or impact but I saw the impact in the branches behind the deer with the 6X LRF. He called the adjustment to the shooter and sent the round. We were shooting SMKs...deer was quartering away...the bullet entered between the rib cage and the ham. A small portion of the bullet fraged and was under the skin in front of the opposing ham. The remainder exited the front shoulder..went into the neck...then out the other side of the neck...DRT. I know...you aren't supposed to use Match Bullets for hunting...but they will work. I know it was 606 because I went to the deer and ranged back to the other truck in the field.

    psst...I think he was talking about 500 from the road...just my best guess
    It may have been prudent using the SMK (much better BC than say a Nossler Partition.) at 600+ yards. Less deflection and better trajectory. Just saying.
     

    Jester896

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    yep... 8 minutes of up
    Deer don't require a Partition bullet
    Not really
    Sierra 142gr SMK BC .626 (G1)
    Hornady 143gr ELD-X BC .625 (G1)
    Nosler 142gr ABLR BC .625 (G1)
     

    M118LR

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    yep... 8 minutes of up
    Deer don't require a Partition bullet
    Not really
    Sierra 142gr SMK BC .626 (G1)
    Hornady 143gr ELD-X BC .625 (G1)
    Nosler 142gr ABLR BC .625 (G1)
    Partition .49 (G1) Min 1800 FPS for reliable/max expansion.
    I didn't work up how fast the 6.5 Nosler Partition would need to leave the barrel to still have at least 1800 fps at target distance of 600+ yards since windspeed & direction/airtemp/altitude/humidity/etc would all factor in.
    Deer don't require Nosler Partition Projectiles, but you never know when you might rub elbows with another critter that they could be helpful harvesting. LOL.
     

    Jester896

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    :) you can safely use 3200-3300 fps at the muzzle. You left out the beginning of spin drift with your environmental factors.
    I did give you a good Nosler example with the Accubond Long Range bullet. I might use the Partition in maybe a .243 and keep it inside 400...otherwise I have no real use for them. I am not limited by factory fodder.

    At 600 yards I wouldn't have to rub elbows with anything that one of those 3 bullets I listed wouldn't kill...I could just be still. :)
     

    M118LR

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    :) you can safely use 3200-3300 fps at the muzzle. You left out the beginning of spin drift with your environmental factors.
    I did give you a good Nosler example with the Accubond Long Range bullet. I might use the Partition in maybe a .243 and keep it inside 400...otherwise I have no real use for them. I am not limited by factory fodder.

    At 600 yards I wouldn't have to rub elbows with anything that one of those 3 bullets I listed wouldn't kill...I could just be still. :)
    Yeah the 6.5 Partition at advertised 2750 fps with a .49 BC isn't going to be sipping along at over 1800 fps @ 400 yards, So hunters taking shots at even 400 yards are going to need to be real particular about thier projectiles.

    Least we forget that 6.5 140 grain projectiles only net 1006 ft/lbs of energy @ 1800 fps, compared to .308 180 grain projectiles netting 1296 ft/lbs of energy @ 1800 fps. On paper the 6.5 offers a slight advantage, on game afield the .308 offers (has a proven record) a slight advantage.

    PS: Right or Left hand twist? Northern or Southern Hemisphere? LOL.
     
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    M118LR

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    So now the time has come to compare apples to apples and oranges to oranges. Overall length of the 6.5 Creedmoor is 2.700-2.825. So the problem with paper cartridges is throat erosion. Throat erosion can be directly attributed to powder capacity verses caliber diameter. There isn't a significant cost difference between a 6.5 Top End Barrel and a .308 Top End Barrel. So when it comes to paper punching the .308 barrel is going to maintain Top End Accuracy Longer. (Higher round count between barrel changes) Have a lower cost for Military Grade Brass or Top End Brass, although there can be a slight cost offset on projectiles which is negated by higher powder charges (costs). So any related net gain when paper punching is offset by a higher cost. A 600 yard x-ring is 6 inches and the ten ring is 12 inches so a 20 x 200 score on paper won't assure you of a single round placed inside of an 8 inch kill zone on a deer, (you are going to need a X-ring hit) not to mention that at less than 1000 ft lbs of energy delivered from a 140 grain 6.5mm Projectile at said distance. Now if your skilled enough to accomplish 600 yard 20-20X-200 legs, the minute recoil difference between a 6.5 Creedmoor and a .308 Winchester isn't going to matter when taking Game Animals Afield at 300 yards. JMHO.

    Bottom Line: The .308 Win costs less when Punching Paper Competitivly, and delivers a Greater Payload Afield at realistic Game Animal Yardage so it's still the hands down chioce at this time. Should the Military actually accept and optimize the 6.5 Creedmore perhaps things shall change? Till then .308 Win is still the best afield. JMHO.
     
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    seandizzie

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    6.5 ELD-X 143 has a .625 g-1 BC and muzzle around 2700 from factory ammo.
    3.6 mils up @600 from 100 yard zero
    E0A13E77-57E3-4548-82EE-A886FB00A3DC.png


    .308 Eldx 178 has a .552 G-1 BC and Muzzle around 2600 from factory ammo.
    4.2 mil up @600 from 100yard zero
    6A6EE469-6A23-4730-9719-ED0C60356244.png

    Its right around 500-600 yards comparing these Comparable High BC hunting bullets that the better Bc of the 6.5 start to show in energy on target and maintaining that velocity longer And is nearly still 2000 fps and 1300 ftlbs at 600 yards. Notice its still well supersonic at 1300 yards

    Love me some .308, but 6.5cm has the long range advantage.
     

    M118LR

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    Good Golly Miss Molley, ain't no need to take game at 600 yards. So since your strictly talking punching paper, the 6.5 eats barrel throats at twice the rate of the .308 Win. Add up your cost and refigure, not to mention that the 6.5 is only allowed to shoot in F-Class unlimited. So once again I'll illiterate, hands down the .308 Win rules afield, costs less paper punching, and offers you a greater ability to compete in more matches. Please check the specs! There are reasons why cartridges become classics and others are wildcats. JMHO.

    OBTW: Perhaps the 5.56/.223 currently holds all the records on the 600 yard range?
    Ouch!!!!!!!!!! Perhaps another paper punching conversation?
     
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    Raven

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    I do a little hunting. Primarily hog, which I have a semi-auto 308 already set up. I just want to be able to reach out reliably when I decide to diversify. And I need a reliable bolt action to compliment my Arsenal if SHTF.

    My hog murder machine:
    If it's for SHTF then it absolutely should be 308, just for sheer availability. Hands down. Doesn't matter what model bolt action or how long the barrel is or what the twist rate is if you can't find ammo. You will always be able to find 308, if for no other reason then the fact that our military uses it everywhere they go, and the military will have it for years after the gun stores have all been looted and all importation has ceased.
     

    Raven

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    I do a little hunting. Primarily hog, which I have a semi-auto 308 already set up. I just want to be able to reach out reliably when I decide to diversify. And I need a reliable bolt action to compliment my Arsenal if SHTF.

    My hog murder machine:
    And as a sniper team, your "hog murder machine" can back up your sniper rifle with the same logistics if they're both in 308. Get a bolt action in 308 that also uses the same mag as the hog murder machine and you're in business, and business is good
    Screenshot_20211106-024032_Chrome.jpg
     

    Jhunter

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    6.5 ELD-X 143 has a .625 g-1 BC and muzzle around 2700 from factory ammo.
    3.6 mils up @600 from 100 yard zero
    View attachment 136167

    .308 Eldx 178 has a .552 G-1 BC and Muzzle around 2600 from factory ammo.
    4.2 mil up @600 from 100yard zero
    View attachment 136168
    Its right around 500-600 yards comparing these Comparable High BC hunting bullets that the better Bc of the 6.5 start to show in energy on target and maintaining that velocity longer And is nearly still 2000 fps and 1300 ftlbs at 600 yards. Notice its still well supersonic at 1300 yards

    Love me some .308, but 6.5cm has the long range advantage.
    Good Golly Miss Molley, ain't no need to take game at 600 yards. So since your strictly talking punching paper, the 6.5 eats barrel throats at twice the rate of the .308 Win. Add up your cost and refigure, not to mention that the 6.5 is only allowed to shoot in F-Class unlimited. So once again I'll illiterate, hands down the .308 Win rules afield, costs less paper punching, and offers you a greater ability to compete in more matches. Please check the specs! There are reasons why cartridges become classics and others are wildcats. JMHO.

    OBTW: Perhaps the 5.56/.223 currently holds all the records on the 600 yard range?
    Ouch!!!!!!!!!! Perhaps another paper punching conversation?
    Rerun these numbers but with a 10 mph wind at 180 degrees. That 308 is getting blown off the range. Also run those 223/556 numbers with a 10 mph wind.

    edit: no one is running down Samuel Halls record group size at 600 yards (.686”) shot with a 6mm dasher
     
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    seandizzie

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    Numbers run,Hornady factory loads on their calculators.

    .308 178 grain eldx
    DBCFC308-1ECB-4011-A03E-C5CECB225EF8.png

    5.56 77grain match
    DE78A93A-BAF4-4B05-AEBC-66A71A70925F.png

    6mm (creed) 105 grain match bullet( not a dasher). Which I believe has similar mv to a 6mm dasher. In my quick search I couldn’t find any specific data for the Dasher
    9ECE3C00-F6FA-4925-86C5-93D38103CB18.png

    Wind drift 10mph@90deg/full value.
    .308- 2.23 mil
    5.56-3.11mil
    6mm-1.9mil

    ( caveat- Difference in bullets and mv will have different results)

    Just a little personal experience-
    I spotted for 2 guys setting up an elk rilfe spitting 30 cal 200+ grain projectiles at 3150fps about a month ago, I can’t remember the specific cartridge but it was some nosler specialty thing. They zeroed out at 450 yards, and that was the range we were shooting. I spotted for them and they let me shoot the last two shots and put both shots in center mass with in about 3 inches having never shot the rifle before. Bipod, no rear bag off a bench. With a rangefinder, known ballistics and that rifle, I would feel confident getting 1st shot effective hits at long range. Those things things hit hard.
     
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