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  • Capt

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    went to the ERGR today, been a while.First thing i notice , no more log in book, touch screen now.After speaking with the RO he tells me they are redoing each range.Here's a pic of start of demolition
     

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    Little Jack

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    Range 2 has been due for awhile. The roof was wore out.

    Something changed in the last few months. I used to be able to go sign in. BS with the RSO then go shoot without having to deal with anybody. It's getting busier and more restrictive. A couple of "have you seen this member?" flyers up, no shooting in front of the line, cameras on the range etc. It's starting to kind of feel like more of a public range.
     

    JWlineman

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    Range 2 has been due for awhile. The roof was wore out.

    Something changed in the last few months. I used to be able to go sign in. BS with the RSO then go shoot without having to deal with anybody. It's getting busier and more restrictive. A couple of "have you seen this member?" flyers up, no shooting in front of the line, cameras on the range etc. It's starting to kind of feel like more of a public range.
    My sentiments as well, not enough to make me leave, but newer staff with more restrictions certainly gives it a different feel.
    It's a balance though, if you wanted to make it a more "exclusive range", have less members with a higher fee. I'm not entirely opposed to a member cap. All that said and I can't even find time to make a member meeting...

    Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk
     

    FrommerStop

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    There are good reasons for much of what they at ERGC are doing since unfortunately some of what people should obviously know as common sense some do not. Their membership is close to 1000 and they are not particularly restrictive as to anyone that wishes to join.
    While cameras are an invasion of privacy they are a necessary measure to properly supervise. I missed the last meeting and I do not know if they are also filming. The ERML or now it is the ERGC is very different from what it was in 1985 when I joined. We used to do what ever we wanted and usually there was no one there. If one does not agree with current policy, then run for a board position or join another club that is more to your liking. Some of these measures are over due.
    Over the years at various places I have seen people at various ranges with no idea of basic safety. How about thinking a loaded gun on the bench was fine for cold range if the safety is on. At the PRPC some one took a .45 caliber either submachine gun or carbine walked down range and fired multiple shots into a side berm and others took AKs and fired in various directions at the top of the berm on another range; such is common for places that have no full-time RSO. Bullets were impacting by a neighbors house. The perpetrators were expelled from the club and really should have criminally charged in my opinion. At many clubs people will directly destroy the target holders by aiming at them. There is an endless list of such things. The best thing if you want to do it your way is to buy some land to shoot on or know someone that will let you shoot.
    I have thought of buying land, but decided it was too much of an investment in time and money and also driving distance.
     
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    SAWMAN

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    The "at PRPC" things you mentioned,including cops fireing full auto,took place a long time ago.
    Things have changed for the "much,much better since that time. I have been a member there since about 2004,am still a member,and will be a member until the day I die. I can live with the rules and abide by the rules.Great members and great board of directors also. ---- SAWMAN
     

    War-Buff

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    I've been a member of ERML/ERGC for quite some time, but other concerns caused me to be absent for about the last 9 months or so, (I kinda wasted my 2019 membership, oh well) so I've been oblivious to any recent changes. I just renewed my membership online but haven't been back yet. They have cameras on the ranges now? What other changes have been made?
     

    FrommerStop

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    The "at PRPC" things you mentioned,including cops fireing full auto,took place a long time ago.
    Things have changed for the "much,much better since that time. I have been a member there since about 2004,am still a member,and will be a member until the day I die. I can live with the rules and abide by the rules.Great members and great board of directors also. ---- SAWMAN
    The PRPC is a great place with a waiting list. One must never assume because we are better we do not have to be alert.
    I was not saying bad things about the PRPC, but what can happen anywhere if someone is not watching.

    Unsafe and destructive behavior will happen anywhere if no one is watching and I have been a member there since about 2001. There are always some that will not follow the rules. Read the last news letter. This is true anywhere.

    We all can slip and I have to watch myself as should anyone. Safety and courtesy are paramount at any range. If I am corrected I try to apologize and say thank you. Anyone that says they are perfect is not telling the truth. I hold the NRA certification as a Range Safety Officer and I still hold retired status with the BCSP as a CSP (Certified Safety Professional).

    AT ERML there used to be an utility line strung over the range and think it was a phone line because there was only one wire. It was down on at least one occasion years ago and I assume it was shot down. It is no longer strong over the firing line. Supervision was important enough that the county demanded that they have an RSO on duty at all times as condition of getting that land. i have had to at both ranges say things to people that were doing unsafe things relating to handling weapons when people were down range. In one case the offender a woman did not respond politely to it. In another case at ERML the man just did not know any better, he the put the gun down and was polite about it.

    The AK incident was not so long ago. Since I think it was since 2013. The Thompson smg against the wall was longer ago. But I was member when It happened because there was a long email chain over it. Not aware that police had anything to do with that. Once I witnessed someone at a range in Maryland put two full auto rounds 7.62x54R with a DP-28 over the 50 yard berm. Later we heard that two bullet holes were found in the roof of a near by race track. These things happen anywhere. When I was there the county closed that range down. Apparently it has now reopened at least for the 50 yard range with the safety structures increased.
    See in the photo below what they were forced to do to eliminate bullets leaving the range.
    Capture.JPG
     

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    FrommerStop

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    went to the ERGR today, been a while.First thing i notice , no more log in book, touch screen now.After speaking with the RO he tells me they are redoing each range.Here's a pic of start of demolition

    Most recent google picture of it. Two meetings ago I heard that Charley Miller had finally lined up a surveyor that was needed to get permission from the County to start moving dirt for the new 500 or 600 yrd new range that is to be built along with other things.
    ERGC.JPG
     

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    Realtor

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    I for one, would like to see smaller crowds, and I'd be willing to pay a little more....

    only real fix is to find about 40 ac next to the swamp.... until then, I'll pick up my brass and follow the rules like a good boy...
     

    FrommerStop

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    Quote Originally Posted by Realtor View Post
    I for one, would like to see smaller crowds, and I'd be willing to pay a little more.....
    At the risk of offending those who couldn't afford an increase, I'd be willing to pay more for a smaller membership total as well.
    I remember prior to the problem with the county the dues were never more than $25 and think in the beginning was paying only $15.
    It is up to $140 now. It could and may go higher. But I am not in favor of doing that to restrict membership. Part of the attack on the second amendment is to shut down ranges. What good is the unorganized militia (Citizens of the USA) if they have no place to shoot and practice. Club membership encourages competition and other things like increased firearms ownership along with support of the second amendment in my opinion.
    The ERML/ERGC is fortunate in that they have a decent impact area behind them and it will be more difficult to close them down. Most of the land behind them is wetland I think and is probably not zonable for building. All of the land around PRPC was recently rezoned to Residential and there are plans to build to there. I suspect lack of financing is the only thing holding the builders back and that could change. There is a grandfather clause for established ranges, but between lawyers and the antigun forces nothing is for sure these days for gun ownership.
    i would like to see the ERGC membership increase and that people follow the rules.
    There are other ranges further out in Santa Rosa County and of course further out including going to AL. Just takes a long time to drive there.
     

    Daezee

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    At the PRPC some one took a .45 caliber either submachine gun or carbine walked down range and fired multiple shots into a side berm

    Please be careful about repeating hearsay. I asked the club president if I could examine the "evidence" of what firearm was used in the wall damage. I was given a coffee can with empties. I took them home and examined and categorized every empty. I then purchased concrete blocks like were in the damaged wall and fired various cartridges at them from differing distances and angles, including shooting from a TSMG, longer barrels than a pistol firearms, and even some centerfire rifles to try to duplicate the damage in an effort to determine what firearms could have been used to make the damage and eliminate other firearms from consideration. I believe a 9mm SMG was also used in testing. I took photographs and filed a multipage long report complete with photos of my shot at concrete blocks and closeups of fired primers from both the evidence I was allowed to examine and primers fired in various submachine guns, pistols, and other firearms. I explained the different fired primer marks. I made multiple copies for the president and all board members. Note: At the subsequent public annual meeting, all board members present denied seeing my report except for one who confronted them and said he personally handed out the report at their last meeting (their "answer" to that confrontation was silence). President said he was not at the meeting and no one had shown him my report; I gave a copy directly to him right then; he indicated he'd study it, but neither him nor board members ever got back to me with either a thanks (I did get a thank you from the board member that had handed out my report) or even contradictory evidence or other testing.

    Bottom line (IIRC): To the best of my knowledge, the fired brass was not fired in a submachine gun and had no firing pin marks that would indicate SMG firing. Most of the fired brass was fired in some type of striker fired pistol (had the typical "glock" firing pin mark on the primer). The .45 brass was fired in some type of tilting bbl pistol (I.e., as the bbl unlocks after firing, it is tilted downward as the slide continues recoiling back) and had firing pin marks indicating same. With pistol rounds fired from a bbl longer than a pistol, the increased velocity did more damage than what the club's wall sustained. A .223 fired, no matter what the angle also caused much more damage.

    Couple of my opinions: Machine gun owners got a bad rap due to non-member deputies doing M16 mag dumps unsupervised (club rules at the time were no extended bursts of automatic firing; MG owning club members were self disciplining by doing no more that 10 rounds, at least in my observations, and had been doing so for years with no problems with the vast majority of bursts of much less than 10, more like 3-4). A conclusion was made about the origin of the damage, and no amount of real evidence and testing was going to change a desired conclusion.
     

    FrommerStop

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    Please be careful about repeating hearsay. I asked the club president if I could examine the "evidence" of what firearm was used in the wall damage. I was given a coffee can with empties. I took them home and examined and categorized every empty. I then purchased concrete blocks like were in the damaged wall and fired various cartridges at them from differing distances and angles, including shooting from a TSMG, longer barrels than a pistol firearms, and even some centerfire rifles to try to duplicate the damage in an effort to determine what firearms could have been used to make the damage and eliminate other firearms from consideration. I believe a 9mm SMG was also used in testing. I took photographs and filed a multipage long report complete with photos of my shot at concrete blocks and closeups of fired primers from both the evidence I was allowed to examine and primers fired in various submachine guns, pistols, and other firearms. I explained the different fired primer marks. I made multiple copies for the president and all board members. Note: At the subsequent public annual meeting, all board members present denied seeing my report except for one who confronted them and said he personally handed out the report at their last meeting (their "answer" to that confrontation was silence). President said he was not at the meeting and no one had shown him my report; I gave a copy directly to him right then; he indicated he'd study it, but neither him nor board members ever got back to me with either a thanks (I did get a thank you from the board member that had handed out my report) or even contradictory evidence or other testing.

    Bottom line (IIRC): To the best of my knowledge, the fired brass was not fired in a submachine gun and had no firing pin marks that would indicate SMG firing. Most of the fired brass was fired in some type of striker fired pistol (had the typical "glock" firing pin mark on the primer). The .45 brass was fired in some type of tilting bbl pistol (I.e., as the bbl unlocks after firing, it is tilted downward as the slide continues recoiling back) and had firing pin marks indicating same. With pistol rounds fired from a bbl longer than a pistol, the increased velocity did more damage than what the club's wall sustained. A .223 fired, no matter what the angle also caused much more damage.

    Couple of my opinions: Machine gun owners got a bad rap due to non-member deputies doing M16 mag dumps unsupervised (club rules at the time were no extended bursts of automatic firing; MG owning club members were self disciplining by doing no more that 10 rounds, at least in my observations, and had been doing so for years with no problems with the vast majority of bursts of much less than 10, more like 3-4). A conclusion was made about the origin of the damage, and no amount of real evidence and testing was going to change a desired conclusion.

    Thanks, for the forensic analysis. Since I was not there to witness any thing that I would say is hearsay. Many .45 carbines that are semiauto would not make a firing pin indentation much different than a pistol. Years ago I ded get a case or two freshly fired out of a thompson submachine gun handed to me from the FBI expert right after he demonstrated firing it to a tour group in DC. The primer did not really look any different. But I was not doing a careful comparison. The expended empty I had was from a 1928 thompson and not an M1 or M1A that have the fixed firing pins. I mention that because that there so much variety in full auto weapons. The variation even gets better after rare parts get repaired or made to keep a gun going.

    There were no witnesses to the event and certainly a pistol could have done what was done. It was stated in club communications to the members that it was a fully automatic weapon and I as a member had no reason to doubt it. If care was needed, it would on the part of the club direction and I had no reason to not believe what was said.

    It seems that I have happened upon an internal issue that I was not aware of. Many people do not like machine guns vs those that do.
    A little late now, but a member that is not a director can attend meetings and I know one member that is often there. It would have been better that you presented it yourself to the board. My own vote would be a no since I believe the plinking range berm is too low for full auto fire at the 100 ft distance, but might be ok at the nearer beam that is less than 50 ft. Big difference between a thompson and say a Mauser M712 Schnellfeuer relative to control with a burst of 10 rounds.

    Inkedglock fireed_LI.jpg
    Below cases that I just fired the other day with G19 with stock firing pin. If you were able to determine that cases from from short recoil tilting design gun that would exclude most smgs since most are blowback or roller lock blow back. Arrow may indicate mark of the striker as the barrel tilted. Glock striker remains forward until reset after recoil and the slide returns. Is this what you were looking for.
     

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    Daezee

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    Often with a tilting lockup pistol (a 1911 would be a classic example), the bbl and slide start to recoil back while the base of the cartridge is still against the face of the slide, and the firing pin has not had time to be retracted fully. You will see the firing pin dent in the primer and a small “tail” coming off the dent. He tail is caused by the firing pin still in contact with the cartridge base as the bbl starts its tilting down movement. Sub guns and carbines normally have a fixed bbl which does not move, thus no “tail” firing pin marks. Open bolt smg’s normally give a deeper firing pin dent than a pistol. Now the MP5 fires from a closed bolt so no big firing pin hit, but the MP5 does leave flute marks on the brass. The 45 brass looked to have been fired in a pistol.

    Your excellent photos are examples of a glock like fired pistol brass. I had not noticed before, but yes I believe the arrow does show the tail I mentioned. As soon as the evidence brass showed a striker fired hit, I ruled out a smg and did not exam more of the striker fired brass, but simply counted their numbers and calibers for the report. There were a few .40 S&W cases that I could not provide a good guess of the firearm, but a smg in that caliber would be an oddity of which I have no knowledge.

    The BOD member I knew told me there were anti-machine gun BOD members. I thought an honest evaluation of the evidence with test firing results, hiding nothing, would correct errors in making a conclusion, but I was wrong. Not quite the same, but when the ERML voted to not allow mg’s, “let the record show it was an unanimous vote”...it was not! I know as I was there for the vote.
     

    FrommerStop

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    The photos I showed were from my brother printer, fax, and scanner. If it is flat and will sit on glass you can get a good picture. Can be used for parts also.
     
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