The other thing for other brands, they no proof that you ever mounted a brace on your gun. So as long as a brace is not on the gun, it was never an SBR and was always a pistol.
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Are all AR pistol owners fixing to become felons ???
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SAWMAN
Master
Nowadays I find that the civilians are waaaaaay too forthcoming with their private/personel info,to the police.
Just keep your damn mouth shut and allow them to prove a case against you.
YouR other choice would be to hire a lawyer and have him do all the talking for you.
Remember gentlemen . . . these are your RIGHTS.
What you did to your gun,how you did it,what exact parts you used,how you installed them,when you installed them,was it a "pistol",was it a "rifle",how long was the bbl before,or after, . . . HUH ??. My lawyer will explain all this to you . . TOMORROW !! --- SAWMAN
Just keep your damn mouth shut and allow them to prove a case against you.
YouR other choice would be to hire a lawyer and have him do all the talking for you.
Remember gentlemen . . . these are your RIGHTS.
What you did to your gun,how you did it,what exact parts you used,how you installed them,when you installed them,was it a "pistol",was it a "rifle",how long was the bbl before,or after, . . . HUH ??. My lawyer will explain all this to you . . TOMORROW !! --- SAWMAN
Remember this is only part one of the first act. If Biden gets elected you be lucky if you can own a muzzle loader without a license.
Duckyou
I don’t give a Weiner shit!
atf is picking up your dog’s shit now and planning on charging you with constructive intent and cruelty to animals...
Likely they will want to control all weapons from sling shots and bows to axes and swords.
Rebel_Rider1969
Well Known Nuisance
Better question, why not?? The overall answer...'Mercia!
Rebel_Rider1969
Well Known Nuisance
Just Watch every episode of the first 48.... 0 proof. Pd is grasping at straws, Dipshits confess. Tg criminals are dumb.
wildrider666
Master
While you provided a reference (PDF Link) Letter which applies only to the addressed recipient (same as every ATF Tech Branch Ltr), omitted is what Prince Law prefaced the Letter with and that is their legal advice on the matter.
"While I would ALWAYS suggest that any individual who owns aSBR/SBS NFA Firearm submit and receive an approved 5320.20 before crossing state lines, the BATFE has issued a letter that where the individual temporarily converts a Title II firearm to a Title 1 firearm, he/she may take it across state lines without submitting and receiving an approved 5320.20. You can see the letter below:"
Prince Law, obviously aware of the ATF Ltr still says treat them like NFA SBR/SBS!
Can I transport a Title II firearm across state lines if it is change to Title I?
While I would ALWAYS suggest that any individual who owns aSBR/SBS NFA Firearm submit and receive an approved 5320.20 before crossing state lines, the BATFE has issued a letter that where the indiv…
blog.princelaw.com
That ATF to W. Bailey July, 2007 can be found in several Web locations. Regardless, all these type ATF Letters are snapshot interpretations provided as guidance. They are not Law.
Herein lies the broader issue of a single ATF Response being utilized by thousands of persons its not address nor applies to. There are dozens of topics/ATF Letters being interpreted as "Public Approval" to do the same/approximate thing. Piggyback on ATF Letters is the Agencies flip-flopping/recinding, altering and even reinstating again. If a person wants to base their innocence or criminality in Court on someone else's ATF Response Letter, go roll the Dice. There's probably thousands of folks doing just that. There is a difference between individual technical responses and Open Letters provided to the Industry.
Qs Honey Badger, following other AR braced pistol formats "should have" sailed through approval "based on others" approved by ATF Letters: didn't happen.
This is not a new problem, we had it with the Adkins Accelerator and:
Gun makers baffled by ATF criteria
The Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives is in charge of determining whether a gun model is legal, but the agency won’t say much about its criteria.
m.washingtontimes.com
I don't have a dog in this fight other than the ATF Honey Badger Letter being another arbitrary decision and the upheaval it creates. If a token ATF AR pistol w/Brace Letter(s) opened the door to all similar configurations, than another ATF "Denial and SBR Classification" Letter could do the same in reverse. It still undetermined if Qs problem is a one of/single issue or with ATF be issuing new reversed opinions to all firearm W/brace mfg/owners after they test the waters? Anybody feeling bump stocks deja vu yet?
wildrider666
Master
Depends on the State, so says the Courts as a felon was convicted of possession of a firearm for one, Upheld on Appeal too. Pellet/BB guns are also firearms in some Jurisdictions. Commie States as expected.
Bowhntr6pt
Master
While you provided a reference (PDF Link) Letter which applies only to the addressed recipient (same as every ATF Tech Branch Ltr), omitted is what Prince Law prefaced the Letter with and that is their legal advice on the matter.
"While I would ALWAYS suggest that any individual who owns aSBR/SBS NFA Firearm submit and receive an approved 5320.20 before crossing state lines, the BATFE has issued a letter that where the individual temporarily converts a Title II firearm to a Title 1 firearm, he/she may take it across state lines without submitting and receiving an approved 5320.20. You can see the letter below:"
Prince Law, obviously aware of the ATF Ltr still says treat them like NFA SBR/SBS!
Can I transport a Title II firearm across state lines if it is change to Title I?
While I would ALWAYS suggest that any individual who owns aSBR/SBS NFA Firearm submit and receive an approved 5320.20 before crossing state lines, the BATFE has issued a letter that where the indiv…
That ATF to W. Bailey July, 2007 can be found in several Web locations. Regardless, all these type ATF Letters are snapshot interpretations provided as guidance. They are not Law.
Herein lies the broader issue of a single ATF Response being utilized by thousands of persons its not address nor applies to. There are dozens of topics/ATF Letters being interpreted as "Public Approval" to do the same/approximate thing. Piggyback on ATF Letters is the Agencies flip-flopping/recinding, altering and even reinstating again. If a person wants to base their innocence or criminality in Court on someone else's ATF Response Letter, go roll the Dice. There's probably thousands of folks doing just that. There is a difference between individual technical responses and Open Letters provided to the Industry.
Qs Honey Badger, following other AR braced pistol formats "should have" sailed through approval "based on others" approved by ATF Letters: didn't happen.
This is not a new problem, we had it with the Adkins Accelerator and:
Gun makers baffled by ATF criteria
The Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives is in charge of determining whether a gun model is legal, but the agency won’t say much about its criteria.
I don't have a dog in this fight other than the ATF Honey Badger Letter being another arbitrary decision and the upheaval it creates. If a token ATF AR pistol w/Brace Letter(s) opened the door to all similar configurations, than another ATF "Denial and SBR Classification" Letter could do the same in reverse. It still undetermined if Qs problem is a one of/single issue or with ATF be issuing new reversed opinions to all firearm W/brace mfg/owners after they test the waters? Anybody feeling bump stocks deja vu yet?
I was simply pointing out your statement:
It's no different than taking a NFA Registered SBR and putting a 20 inch barrelled upper on it: your just in a different configuration but the Receiver is still a Registered SBR. If a person desired to transport this reconfigured SBR to another State, Notifications are still required because the Receiver will always be a "SBR".
Is wrong.
The letter, which you insinuate you're familiar with, clearly states your assertion is legally incorrect. Regardless of your opinion or mine, a reconfigured SRB receiver with a 16" or longer barrel is not regulated in any form or fashion... period.
And seeing as you mentioned the letters NOT being law, you're correct, the LAW clearly defines what am SBR is... the definition makes no mention of the receiver being "registered" as such.
Bottom line is an SBR that's not in legal SBR configuration is not subject to any additional regulations like you posted and no notification is required as you stated.
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wildrider666
Master
We disagree.
You disregard what Prince Law Firm says above the Letter which IS their advice.
A NFA registered SBR is Regulated and remains in the NFRTR.
Your removing a part but not destroying or desposing of the part. You merely seperating the parts with retention for reassembly. That does not remove it from the scope of the NFA which requires compliance with 29 CFR 478.28.
An ATF Letter is below a formal "ATF Ruling" which doesn't have the force or effect of Law. It's not your Letter providing an opinion for your application/use. We have no way of knowing if a 13 year old ATF opinion is still current, altered or rescinded. Internet stuff stays around forever. If ATF rescinded it, they would only address it to the original recipient. It not like the ATF flip-flops on its decisions [Sarc]. I'll default to what the actual Laws states.
You're more than welcome to attach your wagon where you want and I understand you have.
Bowhntr6pt
Master
Yes, we disagree. Thanks for the friendly discussion.
Bowhntr6pt
Master
If I understand your position, you're saying once a rifle is registered as an SBR it has to be treated as an SBR regardless if the barrel is changed to 16" or longer? If so, below might convince you otherwise.
Section 2.5 of the NFA Handbook
Clearly a source document that is NOT opinion.
Clearly states firearms fall under the NFA based on FEATURES.
Clearly states removing said FEATURES removes said firearm from the scope of NFA regulations.
Section 2.5 Removal of firearms from the scope of the NFA by modification/elimination of components.
Firearms, except machineguns and silencers, that are subject to the NFA fall within the various definitions due to specific features. If the particular feature that causes a firearm to be regulated by the NFA is eliminated or modified, the resulting weapon is no longer an NFA weapon.
For example, a shotgun with a barrel length of 15 inches is an NFA weapon. If the 15- inch barrel is removed and disposed of, the remaining firearm is not subject to the NFA because it has no barrel. Likewise, if the 15 inch barrel is modified by permanently attaching an extension such that the barrel length is at least 18 inches and the overall length of the weapon is at least 26 inches, the modified firearm is not subject to the NFA.
SAWMAN
Master
After reading all of that legal mumbo-jumbo gobbledegook,how could someone NOT want/prefer a AR pistol vs a paperworked and reg'ed to death SBR,and carry a briefcase full of paperwork with you every time you head out on hunting trip.
I look at it like this. - - -> youz guyz keep on filling out all that paperwork,keep sending in all that hard earned money,keep doing the paperwork two step,keep doing the 6-14 month wait stuff,and the whining (!!) . . . ??
Keep sitting around looking at those uppers that you cannot pin on,and go find them surpressors that the LGS has had "custody" of for the last 6 months,went out of buisness,and your BOUGHT AND PAID FOR supressor is in ya-ya land somewhere.
I CHOOSE TO AVOID ALL THIS AGGRIVATION. But just want to throw out a word of sincere thanks to those that do. As long as ATF keeps turning out new forms,new rules,collecting enough money,it justifies their jobs and the BUREAU in general. And keeps the big wigs satisfied ENOUGH to allow me to own an AR pistol. ---- SAWMAN
I look at it like this. - - -> youz guyz keep on filling out all that paperwork,keep sending in all that hard earned money,keep doing the paperwork two step,keep doing the 6-14 month wait stuff,and the whining (!!) . . . ??
Keep sitting around looking at those uppers that you cannot pin on,and go find them surpressors that the LGS has had "custody" of for the last 6 months,went out of buisness,and your BOUGHT AND PAID FOR supressor is in ya-ya land somewhere.
I CHOOSE TO AVOID ALL THIS AGGRIVATION. But just want to throw out a word of sincere thanks to those that do. As long as ATF keeps turning out new forms,new rules,collecting enough money,it justifies their jobs and the BUREAU in general. And keeps the big wigs satisfied ENOUGH to allow me to own an AR pistol. ---- SAWMAN
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Rebel_Rider1969
Well Known Nuisance
Not joe, the Harris administration...Joe will catch snowflake 19 two months into office.
wildrider666
Master
I quoted and addressed that same material in #35. In brief, it states its not a Law book, language and example reflect permanent change of those features.
