DK Firearms

8 inch paper plates, the inconvenient truth.

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  • M118LR

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    It's that time again. Those dang 8 inch paper plates are appearing on the unsupported standing known distance range. To some it may not be a challenge to perforate an 8 inch paper plate 10 out of 10 attempts while standing unsupported at 50,100,200, or even 300 yards. But since this year I find myself with a new Hunting Rifle, the challenges performed in the past are not applicable. I'm having a little difficulty holding 10 out of ten at 200 yards with my new .30-06 Ruger Guide Gun. So don't be afraid to include those current perforated 8 inch paper plates to make me long for days gone bye.

    Perhaps I should take the Old Mini-30 back out to the 200 yard KD range?
    Afterall, it could be the Indian not the arrow?
     
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    M118LR

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    Range results have me scratching my head.
    The New 30-06 Guide Gun while kneeling or prone shoots groups 1/8 the size of the Mini-30 @ 200 yards. Yet I can still keep 10 out of 10 within a 8 inch circle with the Mini-30 standing unsupported, but I'm only able to perforate the 8 inch plate with my first 5 shots when using the Guide Gun. Doesn't make sense to me.

    Both carbines have identical scopes. For the Mini-30 @ 200 I have to hold over, the Guide Gun @ 200 I have to hold under. While it's possible that the difference between hold over/ hold under is affecting my shooting, it shouldn't make such a drastic difference? and why isn't it affecting my first 5 rounds from the Guide Gun?

    I've got 2 sling attachment points on the Guide Gun, the only time I can notice any difference between them is at 300 yards when prone. Group size gets larger when the sling is attached to the barrel band. When the sling is attached to the forearm band the carbine performs better (smaller) groups. Unfortunately, standing unsupported @ 200 yards neither sling attachment point makes any noticeable difference. The end result is that the last 5 rounds I fire have a one in five chance of perforating an 8 inch circle.

    I may have to consider that fatigue (Old Age) is affecting my shooting. Maybe the extra weight of the Guide Gun or the extra 4 inches of barrel (20 Guide Gun-16 Mini-30) is more than I can maintain while standing unsupported? The Guide Gun is compensated while the Mini-30 isn't? But that should make the Guide Gun outperform the Mini-30.

    Perhaps it's time to ponder restricting standing shoots to 100 yards on live game? Part of the reason for getting the 30-06 Guide Gun was to remove the 100 yard restriction of the 7.62 x 39mm Mini-30. But since it seems that I'm not able to keep 10 of 10 on an 8 inch paper plate @ 200 yards while standing, guess I'll need to restrict myself to kneeling or prone shots over 100 yards? Or should I change my SOP and lower my standards to reflect that since the first 5 shot's all strike the 8 inch mark that's good enough?
     

    Jhunter

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    I’d be willing to bet it’s a flinch. Those light weight 30-06 are great for carrying but not so much fun to shoot. The giveaway is a .223 that’s not as good of a shooter (less recoiling) vs great shooter (more recoil). Dry fire could help or consider a caliber with less recoil. 10 shots with a heavy recoil gun is not easy to pull off without developing a flinch. I don’t care big of a man you are, lightweight guns are difficult to shoot
     

    M118LR

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    I’d be willing to bet it’s a flinch. Those light weight 30-06 are great for carrying but not so much fun to shoot. The giveaway is a .223 that’s not as good of a shooter (less recoiling) vs great shooter (more recoil). Dry fire could help or consider a caliber with less recoil. 10 shots with a heavy recoil gun is not easy to pull off without developing a flinch. I don’t care big of a man you are, lightweight guns are difficult to shoot
    Flinching is probably part of the problem, but if it's recoil related wouldn't it start after firing the first round? And shouldn't it affect my shooting while kneeling & prone? Then again, standing unsupported exaggerates every weakness in marksmanship technique.

    Now there is a noticeable difference in recoil between the 30-06 Guide Gun and the 7.62 x 39 Mini-30, and on paper plates at 200 yards it appears that I'm better off with the Mini-30 than the Guide Gun. But afield, it's just not ethical to expect 150 grain 7.62 x 39 mm to cleanly harvest deer sized game animals at 200 yards (JMHO) even with proper projectile placement. (yes I agree, shot placement is the number one factor while harvesting game.) But I also believe that the cartridge used has to have enough umph to produce at least 90% single shot stops at the desired distance. (once again assuming proper shot placement.)

    "10 shots with a heavy recoil gun is not easy to pull off without developing a flinch. I don’t care big of a man you are, lightweight guns are difficult to shoot"

    Ain't that the truth! But it ain't any easier with Old Arms and a heavier longer barreled rifle either. Perhaps a load with less than fullhouse 170+ grain 30-06's might improve my paper plate score? At least it would confirm the recoil affect. Perhaps I should pull out some of the 150 grain Gerand target loads next time I head to the 200 KD range to exterminate 8 inch paper plates unsupported with the Guide Gun? But even those are going to produce more recoil than the 7.62 x 39.
     

    Duckyou

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    I’m not what I would call old or young - and I don’t want to shoot my 30-06 rifles 10 times in a row (all bolt guns).

    I do go through at least 100 556, 300blk, and 9mm on every range trip.
     

    joraca

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    My SKS with the red dot and 150s or 154s is fun to shoot. My 30-06 700 mountain rifle with 180s is not. If I am sitting, it is usually with the 30-06. If I am moving through the weeds, it is usually with the SKS. My SKS hits about 4 inches high at 100yds. The 30-06 about 1/2 that. I'd say carry whatever will work best for what you think you'll see. Or buy some 125 gr rounds for the 30-06 and limit your range to about 300 yds with that load.
     

    M118LR

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    I’m not what I would call old or young - and I don’t want to shoot my 30-06 rifles 10 times in a row (all bolt guns).

    I do go through at least 100 556, 300blk, and 9mm on every range trip.

    I've got Old habits deeply ingrained. Call it a Military/Competition problem. 10 round groups are always more indicative of actual performance than standard 3 round groups. Now for actual Hunting, perhaps the Single Cold Bore Shot should be given more importance than either 3 or 10 round groupings. But it's just habitual that prior to taking a shot afield I have to have at least a 90% successful completion rate at the KD Range. It gets even worse when it's time to fill my tag, no matter how many thousands of rounds I've sent down the High Power Rifle KD Range successfully, at even 4 times the normal 300 yard distance, I still restrict myself to pass up any shot beyond 300 yards on actual Game Animals. Guess it's that Anal Military 3MOA perception. Old habits die hard.....

    Most Rifle/Cartridge Combos can easily maintain 3MOA, the Nut Behind the Butt not so much. The farther away you get the more difficult it is to maintain 3MOA 10 out of 10 times.
     
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    M118LR

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    Sounds like the perfect excuse to pick up a nice AR10!
    As if there needs to be an excuse!


    Mini-30 6.7 lbs. Guide Gun 8.1 lbs.

    Perhaps someone has the formula for rifle recoil?
    But if memory serves me an 8 pound rifle firing a 150 grain projectile @ 2820 fps ends up with 7.55 fps of recoil.
     
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    wildrider666

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    First, I'd throw the Mini 30 out of the conversation. The two firearms are not anywhere near equivalents. The base line IS: you can shoot as demonstrated by your first five satisfactory shots.

    Number of Shots in a "Group". I think your sabotaging your self with unnecessary 10 Shot groups "requirement" when your "single quarry" should not take that many. Mil stuff is nice and has some useful crossover but a large number of shots to include from a hot barrel is not in allignment with the stated purpose. Five in the bread basket (plate) should be more than adequate.

    Could we back up the conversation? How does the Guide Gun (GG) group at 100 yards from the Bench? 1/8th The size of the Mini 30 is not a helpful MOA reference for my understanding of what the GG platform and ammo delivers. I would hope the GG held sub 4 MOA @ 100 yards. Have you already determined the most accurate hunting Load? The GGs Muzzle Break is supposed to reduce preceived recoil but the entire systems weight (8lbs naked) drives the variable of shooter fatigue.

    Paper plates are cheap and commonly used target BUT its actually a large POA and you will always get appropriate large groups. If your optic is capable of a finer POA at the desired distance: put a contrasting smaller 2 or 4 inch Center on the plate. Aim small: hit small.

    We all get or are old. Optics help the eyes and shooting sticks can add stability. I don't care for mono's but dual leg Sticks are very stable. There's a few on the market but I've always made mine from fiberglass tent poles, surgical tubing over the stock contact area, a simple hinge, rubber stoppers for footings and added a key ring type belt clip. Pretty easy to figure out.

    Slings for shooting stability, I love what they can provide when properly utilized. However, off the rifle range; I never see slings used in that manner other then an occasional hasty sling forearm wrap. Folks now only care about how many "Points" it has and what the newest mount type is. Lol.
     

    M118LR

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    Okay, moonwalking the conversation. The GG has only been feed full house factory hunting loads 170-190 grain due to time/range time constrictions prior to hunting season. Bench groups are limited to ten rounds with adjustments every three rounds to center the pattern for sling assisted unsupported shooting. But to answer your question, the GG from a bipod has yet to group over .75 inches @ 100 yards with 4 different factory hunting loads.

    On paper the Mini-30 is clearly the winner unsupported. So here is the unsupported 5 shot Mini-30 grouping @ 100 yards for your visual pleasure wildrider666. When I get more free time and can expend less time as a caregiver, I'll gladly walk the GG through Military Pre Deployment Qualifications. But since I just spent the last 6 days in the POV to make sure Mama got to say Goodbye to her big sister, even though well feed with Lake Michigan food, I'm spent........

    mini 30 cold bore.jpg
     

    IronBeard

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    Problems after the first five rounds make me think heat, maybe heat plus the barrel is contacting the stock somewhere. Wrap a dollar around your barrel and drag it between the barrel/stock to find out if and where that might be happening. Sand paper is the cure. Honestly, if your first 5 are where you want 'em, you're good, IMO. Unless you are about mass slaughter of hogs that refuse to depart.......

    Barrel length. I have have two Marlins with 18.5 inch barrels. Love the handling, but the reality is, the shorter the barrel, the more any movement is magnified down range. More movement = bigger groups.

    Bullet weight equates to bullet length; more contact with rifling. When I got into 06, everyone said 150 grain bullets were IT. Well, I bought some 180's because that's all there was, and both my Remingtons (700 and 750) shoot better with 180's than 150's or 160's; groups went from about 4 inches at 100 yards to under 2, with factory ammo. Can't say that'll be the same for you. FWIW, based on the advice of an Internet acquaintance, I'm going to load up some round nosed bullets in the future. He maintains they shoot more accurately out of his 06's than the pointy bullets. His bullet of choice for his 06's is the 170 grain round nose soft point normally used in the .30-30.

    All said, experiment, and do what works for you.
     

    M118LR

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    Well, the barrel is definitely touching the stock. Free floating isn't part of the design, and a heavy heat displacing barrel also isn't part of the design. But in years gone bye lightweight barrels with barrel bands had purpose built touch points with the stock. I'm believing that the problem with the rifle standing unsupported is the operator! Shooting from a bipod is a completely different equation. But you are right, experimentation may solve the operators problems and allow this rifle/cartridge combo to perform within required specifications. The mechanical accuracy of the firearm seems to be better than the "Nut Behind The Butt", but the object is to match both accuracy requirements to make standing unsupported shots work at least 90% of the time @ 200 yards. JMHO.
     

    IronBeard

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    Well, the barrel is definitely touching the stock. Free floating isn't part of the design, and a heavy heat displacing barrel also isn't part of the design. But in years gone bye lightweight barrels with barrel bands had purpose built touch points with the stock. I'm believing that the problem with the rifle standing unsupported is the operator! Shooting from a bipod is a completely different equation. But you are right, experimentation may solve the operators problems and allow this rifle/cartridge combo to perform within required specifications. The mechanical accuracy of the firearm seems to be better than the "Nut Behind The Butt", but the object is to match both accuracy requirements to make standing unsupported shots work at least 90% of the time @ 200 yards. JMHO.

    Yeah, standing and not supported is a tough one. Personally, I'd probably find some kind of rest for over 70-80. Others are way better than that, but I know I'm not. Sounds like you about have it figured out.
     

    M118LR

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    Perhaps it's time to change to a 2-2-2-2&2 round load? A little more rest time than 4-4-2 might help the Old Arms out?

    In no way is this a Benchrest Rifle. This rifle is designed from step one for use afield by those going afield. The challenge is for the operator to be capable of matching the rifles mechanical accuracy during unsupported field operations. Jack O'Connor published his exploits with Pre-64 Winchester Model 70's and made Rifle scribe history.

    Hey, wait a minute! I haven't looked at a single picture from anyone that even equals the Mini-30 at 100 yards unsupported. Now I'll gladly accept Y'all's inputs to solve my problem. But how about displaying a little pictorial information for the general viewing public? At least
    a 3 round group at 100 yards, 200 yards may prove to be a bit more difficult. What with range restrictions etc.

    How do they say it nowadays? If it ain't photographed it didn't happen? Post up the paper plates Gent's! I'm already admitting that Time has taken it's toll from my shooting abilities. Post those paper plates to school the youngsters!!!!!! While I may only post photos that are attested, I won't hold anyone else to such standards. Post Y'alls individual paper plate photos, and shame me into submission Please! LOL.
     
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    M118LR

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    One last range session left before taking it afield. Perhaps it's time to just draw an 8 inch circle on a standard 14 inch Sight in target? Aim small & perhaps I'll miss small? At least I should be able to keep all 10 on a 14 inch sight-in target. LOL.
     

    M118LR

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    Hindsight is 20-20. The B-in-law brought the Old M1A MA9827 up. While heavier and longer barreled I was still able to drop 9 out 10 inside the 8 inch circle @200? Since both the semi Mini-30 and M1A outperformed the Guide Gun I began to wonder if cycling the bolt was adding to my extra dispersion. It wasn't until the M1A & Guide Gun where side by side that I noticed how short the butt stock of the Guide Gun was? Talk about a basic marksmanship failure on my part. I didn't add any of the butt spacers to the 12.75 inch LOP of the Guide Gun. It was over a half inch shorter than my normal LOP. Adding the spacers to properly fit my LOP didn't solve all the problem, but it instantly took me from 50% @ 200 unsupported to 80% @ 200 unsupported. I may need to look into a comb raising kit for the Guide Gun? As my cheek weld is not as solid as it is with either the Mini-30 or Old M1A MA9827 with thier comb raising kits. While these basic marksmanship failures didn't significantly effect unsupported at 100 yards or bench/bipod at 100 & 200 yards. The extra effort required unsupported at 200 yards was significantly affected. Now a couple of ten round strings of 8 out of 10 ain't 10 out of 10 at least ten times in a row, but 8 out of 10 (80%) is far more comforting than 5 out of ten. (50%). {Perhaps the fact that I wasn't shooting alone added a competition concentration factor?} But this lesson painfully learned underscores how important the Principles of Basic Marksmanship are when standing unsupported, and how easy it is to fall into BAD HABITS when the Bipod replaces the Hasty as a primary practice regime. I won't have time this Season to find out how much cycling the bolt vice pulling the trigger with the rifle solidly on my shoulder effects performance. But I'll step back to iron sights & square one when time allows after the season.

    Bottomline: Skipping any step of basic marksmanship to meet a timeline (or general forgetfulness) won't equate to Top Performance.

    Thousands of rounds from the Bipod/prone at the 1K line won't make up for ten rounds standing unsupported from a Hastey at 200 yards. Guess there is a reason that shots from supported positions are continuously more accurate? JMHO.

    Thanks for Y'all's input. The goal hasn't been achieved, but significant progress is in work. More to come at a later date. Thank You again.

    Even Old Photo's are always good. JMHO.
    leatherwood m1a.jpg


    M1A-Loaded.jpg


    Just one more for those Old Timers that cut thier teeth on an M14.
    leatherwood scope.jpg


    Then again, I've been told that my range sessions & posts possess to much Bravado! So perhaps it's better that I become once again just an Observer. I've got decades of experience in Observer Groups, but I don't believe that Y'all are incapable of outperforming any of the documented or photographed items on these pages. You might need a little motivation to actually attempt these feats for no other reason than to accomplish them! Want to list them as Challenges? What's left when Y'all have defeated every challenge?

    To steal from a line from a C&W song. Can I still do once the things I once did?
    It may become a question of what's at stake in the game. But it is probable that Y'all may be able to repeat once, what I once did when the stakes are high enough. But that may explain that competitive concentration level????????? I'm betting that Y'all can shatter anything I've posted with a bit of effort on "The Range". ! JMHO.
     
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