338 federal at 300 yards

[Blackpowder8bore]

Going for 400. You think its ethical on deer with handloaded Silvertips at 400 yards? Or with factory federal fusion ammo?

 

[SAWMAN]

No first hand expierance with the 338Fed,however I do have a friend in Maine that has an AR and bolt gun chambered in this cartridge.
It has alot going for it. Common (308Win) bolt face. Same pressures. Same brass. Same OAL I believe,so same mags,more energy/momentum on target,etc,etc.
My friend shoots the lighter bullets across the vast clear cuts for,bear and the bigger whitetails. He has been shooting the 338Fed for about 7 years now. He has liquidated a bunch of guns but has kept these two.
His AR has a 22" bbl with a 4.5-14X50 Leupold on it.
"Ethical" . . . ABSOLUTELY !! Just know your drops and use a midweight bullet w/ boat tail. ---SAWMAN

 

[Telum Pisces]

Ethical depends on your confidence in hitting the vitals at that range! I am comfortable at 200-250 to take a shot with a damn good rest and enough time for the animal to give me the shot. Passed that, I usually don't take it. I shoot a 30-06 and a .308 at those ranges and know they can take deer out to 500+ yards ballistic wise no problem. It's the shooter (me) that is the weak link in the chain.

I took one shot on a doe this past season at between 275-300 yards and whiffed thankfully and I felt instant "you dummy" feeling after taking the shot!

So if you are a good shot, take it! If you suck like I do, maybe not.

Now on a hog hunt or some other hunt where "ethical" shot placement is not some magical "I have to recover" this animal thing, I have lobbed freaking artillery shells of 180 grain round nose 30-06 at what I am shooting at in hopes of getting lucky at damn near 500 yards!

 

[FrommerStop]

midweight bullet w/ boat tail. ---SAWMAN

How will a boat tail help out if the velocity is still supersonic. If the the .338 bullet when it strikes is not supersonic at 400 years maybe it is not the right load to using. You likely need above 2000 with many bullets for expansion.

Truly Useful: The .338 Federal

The latest in the long line of .308-based cartridges is beginning to look like a winner.

www.rifleshootermag.com

 

[SAWMAN]

Read your above several times and I'm sorry,I really do not understand unless your writeup is a misprint.
A boat tail bullet is designed as such so that the bullet slips through the air more efficiently. (less drag)
Question - -> what percentage of .338" bullets are designed boat tail ?? WHY ??
Question - -> why would you REDUCE LOADS so that your .338" bullet IS NOT super at 400yds ??
Question - -> do benchrest shooters that normally compete at ranges greater than 100yds use boat tail bullets ?? WHY ?? Do ALL 1000yd shooters use boat tail bullets ?? Why ??
My opinion is - - -> load/use/shoot a lightweight to midweight bullet,driven as fast as accurately possible. It WILL be super at 400yds. Use a boat tail to help it's speed,help it's trajectory.
Shooters have been doing this for alot of years.
Sorry sir if I am missing your point. --- SAWMAN

 

[FrommerStop]

Read your above several times and I'm sorry,I really do not understand unless your writeup is a misprint.
A boat tail bullet is designed as such so that the bullet slips through the air more efficiently. (less drag)
Question - -> what percentage of .338" bullets are designed boat tail ?? WHY ??
Question - -> why would you REDUCE LOADS so that your .338" bullet IS NOT super at 400yds ??
Question - -> do benchrest shooters that normally compete at ranges greater than 100yds use boat tail bullets ?? WHY ?? Do ALL 1000yd shooters use boat tail bullets ?? Why ??
My opinion is - - -> load/use/shoot a lightweight to midweight bullet,driven as fast as accurately possible. It WILL be super at 400yds. Use a boat tail to help it's speed,help it's trajectory.
Shooters have been doing this for alot of years.
Sorry sir if I am missing your point. --- SAWMAN

LOL go back and read what I wrote. I did not speak about reducing loads and you want above 2000 fps second.
Ballistics 101
1000 yard shooters use boat tails because the boat tail bullets are assumed to be preform better as the bullet transitions to subsonic velocities. A big push now days is to have loads that stay supersonic out to 1000 yards. The boat tail design may help for that also.
For target shooting at closer ranges the flat base bullet is superior. We are talking bench rest shooting here and these are measuring groups size to decimal points.

Google factoid:
Is boat tail ammo more accurate?
The answer, and the reason, will surprise you. Flat-base bullets are inherently more accurate than boattail bullets because it is almost impossible to put boattails on perfectly. Even so, over long range, a boattail's ballistic benefits outweigh any manufacturing flaws.

The boat tail is better 'stream lined' for various reasons, but the big thing is the less drag on the bullet that is most important at and about the transonic range.
The basic difference for flat base and boat tail is typically explained as follows

Banging Out Boattails

Which shoots more accurately, a flat-base bullet or a boattail bullet? The answer, and the reason, will surprise you.

www.rifleshootermag.com

At high velocity, the base drag is not as significant a percentage of the overall drag. But once a bullet drops below the speed of sound, into the transonic and subsonic velocity range, base drag becomes the dominant drag component.

 

[FLT]

I’ll have to admit, that’s the first time I’ve read that . Interesting ,

 

[Jhunter]

Has anyone noticed the shape of some of these new hybrid cars or even the shape of the new trucks on the interstate with those silly doors hanging off the back. Yep looks like a boatail design to me. Anyway that 338 Fed is a great choice for medium use game at 400. Just make sure you have an optic that is capable at that distance

 

[SAWMAN]

Yep,you need to go back and reread what I posted also re. benchrest shooters and 100yds.
Sooooo. . . the link and you believe that the boat tail design is only functional down around 1050fps,when the bullet goes from super to sub ??
If that us so,then why are so many bullets designed with a boat tail. And what percent of them,either factory or handloads EVER drop below 1050fps (approx. speed of sound) (5% maybe)
Does a bullets boat tail help to keep a bullet super at extended ranges ?? ---- SAWMAN

 

[Blackpowder8bore]

Read your above several times and I'm sorry,I really do not understand unless your writeup is a misprint.
A boat tail bullet is designed as such so that the bullet slips through the air more efficiently. (less drag)
Question - -> what percentage of .338" bullets are designed boat tail ?? WHY ??
Question - -> why would you REDUCE LOADS so that your .338" bullet IS NOT super at 400yds ??
Question - -> do benchrest shooters that normally compete at ranges greater than 100yds use boat tail bullets ?? WHY ?? Do ALL 1000yd shooters use boat tail bullets ?? Why ??
My opinion is - - -> load/use/shoot a lightweight to midweight bullet,driven as fast as accurately possible. It WILL be super at 400yds. Use a boat tail to help it's speed,help it's trajectory.
Shooters have been doing this for alot of years.
Sorry sir if I am missing your point. --- SAWMAN

You read it right and I know about boat tails I just heard a couple people arguing about oi but the ethicalness of shooting 400 yards with thatroud.i think it is ethical,and at 300 yards my non boattail factory round makes its mark every time, so I'm going with the 400 yard shots an ethical even without a boat tail. I load 180tsx and similar silvertips andwhitetail are easy to kill anyway. I appreciate your input.

 

[Blackpowder8bore]

How will a boat tail help out if the velocity is still supersonic. If the the .338 bullet when it strikes is not supersonic at 400 years maybe it is not the right load to using. You likely need above 2000 with many bullets for expansion.

Truly Useful: The .338 Federal

The latest in the long line of .308-based cartridges is beginning to look like a winner.

www.rifleshootermag.com

View attachment 84473

Nowhere near subsonic. You have solved my argument. I'll take the panther to 400!

 

[donr101395]

How will a boat tail help out if the velocity is still supersonic. If the the .338 bullet when it strikes is not supersonic at 400 years maybe it is not the right load to using. You likely need above 2000 with many bullets for expansion.

Truly Useful: The .338 Federal

The latest in the long line of .308-based cartridges is beginning to look like a winner.

www.rifleshootermag.com

View attachment 84473

Expansion has as much to do with bullet design as velocity. For example in .338 Federal the 220gr ELD X expands down to 1300 FPS and is good or at least marketed at good to go out to 400 meters.

 

[Blackpowder8bore]

Ethical depends on your confidence in hitting the vitals at that range! I am comfortable at 200-250 to take a shot with a damn good rest and enough time for the animal to give me the shot. Passed that, I usually don't take it. I shoot a 30-06 and a .308 at those ranges and know they can take deer out to 500+ yards ballistic wise no problem. It's the shooter (me) that is the weak link in the chain.

I took one shot on a doe this past season at between 275-300 yards and whiffed thankfully and I felt instant "you dummy" feeling after taking the shot!

So if you are a good shot, take it! If you suck like I do, maybe not.

Now on a hog hunt or some other hunt where "ethical" shot placement is not some magical "I have to recover" this animal thing, I have lobbed freaking artillery shells of 180 grain round nose 30-06 at what I am shooting at in hopes of getting lucky at damn near 500 yards!

I am confident I can adjust my scope to make my mark.

 

[FrommerStop]

Yep,you need to go back and reread what I posted also re. benchrest shooters and 100yds.
Sooooo. . . the link and you believe that the boat tail design is only functional down around 1050fps,when the bullet goes from super to sub ??
If that us so,then why are so many bullets designed with a boat tail. And what percent of them,either factory or handloads EVER drop below 1050fps (approx. speed of sound) (5% maybe)
Does a bullets boat tail help to keep a bullet super at extended ranges ?? ---- SAWMAN

Remember there are lot of fads in shooting relative to what is in use. I am not an expert ballistician. and suggest more reading for those looking for better information. What I have stated is generally true and I do not feel comfortable in adding too much to it.
A man has got to know his limitations and what I stated is at my limits.
i suggest that many here would benefit from going back and reading Hatcher's Notebook from cover to cover a couple of times paying close attention to the parts on ballistics.
I believe this link works. https://archive.org/details/Hatchers_Notebook/page/n155/mode/2up

Major General Julian S. Hatcher was born in Virginia on June 26, 1888. He graduated from the United States Naval Academy with honors in 1909 and served in the Navy for 14 months, after which he transferred to the U. S. Army Coast Artillery Corps.
In 1913, he was detailed to the Ordnance Department, thus beginning his remarkable Army career in the field of ordnance, specifically dealing with firearms and soldier training.

His many comprehensive books and informative publications on firearms were widely used by both military and civilian agencies, particularly the Federal Bureau of Investigation.

He was the first Commanding General of the Ordnance Training Center at Aberdeen Proving Ground – from January 1, 1940 to June 1, 1942 – and was Chief of the Military Training Division, Office of the Chief of Ordnance, from June 2, 1942 to February 1, 1943. From February 2, 1943 to July 31, 1945, General Hatcher was Chief of Field Service, Ordnance Department, the most critical years of World War II.
General Hatcher died on 4 December 1963.

 

[Jhunter]

https://www.amazon.com/Bryan-Litz/e/B00J216MMI?ref=dbs_a_mng_rwt_scns_share Bryan Litz has a series of books that was a gamechanger for me. It really caries over to the competitive world of shooting with hit probabilities and so on. He also shows formulas for a shooter to use in say a hunting situation that you could use in the field to keep things ethical. A Bullets BC shows at all distances through velocity. A bullet with a .250 G1 BC(Flat Base) vs a bullet of the same weight with a .500 G1 BC (Boattail) will be traveling faster at 400 yards due to its sleeker design.

 

[FrommerStop]

https://www.amazon.com/Bryan-Litz/e/B00J216MMI?ref=dbs_a_mng_rwt_scns_share Bryan Litz has a series of books that was a gamechanger for me. It really caries over to the competitive world of shooting with hit probabilities and so on. He also shows formulas for a shooter to use in say a hunting situation that you could use in the field to keep things ethical. A Bullets BC shows at all distances through velocity. A bullet with a .250 G1 BC(Flat Base) vs a bullet of the same weight with a .500 G1 BC (Boattail) will be traveling faster at 400 yards due to its sleeker design.

How much faster for bullets of the same ogive but flat base vs boat at 400 yards. No question that a round nose 30-30 slug will lose more velocity than a pointed design of bullet.

 

[FrommerStop]

The ballistic coefficient for the same bullet changes with the velocity that is something I just learned.
338 CALIBER 250 GR. HPBT MATCHKING

.587 @ 2150 fps and above, .606 between 2150 and 1700 fps, .576 between 1700 and 1400 fps, .484 @1400 fps and below

Rifle – Sierra Bullets

www.sierrabullets.com

 

[Jhunter]

I’m not aware of any .338 FB Bullets. I plugged in a American Eagle 55 FMJ BT vs a Berger 55 grain FB varmintBoth at 3240 fps and both .224 in diameter. The FMJ has a BC of .269 G1 and the Berger has a BC of .209 G1. The BT design travels 300 FPS faster at 400 yards although they both started at the same velocity

 

[FrommerStop]

I’m not aware of any .338 FB Bullets. I plugged in a American Eagle 55 FMJ BT vs a Berger 55 grain FB varmintBoth at 3240 fps and both .224 in diameter. The FMJ has a BC of .269 G1 and the Berger has a BC of .209 G1. The BT design travels 300 FPS faster at 400 yards although they both started at the same velocity

At one time just about the all of the .338 bullets were flatbase when I had a .338 win mag back in the early 70's IIRC.
Home>Hunt Specialty>.338 CALIBER 225 GR. SPT .338 CALIBER 225 GR. SPT
Sierra



The .338 caliber 225 grain SPT Pro-Hunter features a flat base design and the lighter weight of this projectile make it a great choice for medium & large game. Combine that with Sierra’s world-renowned accuracy, and you have a perfect choice for those hunters seeking a reduced recoil alternative where a heavier bullet is not required.

 

[FrommerStop]

I am not shure which FMJ BT you were looking at. For comparison I found a Hornady 55 gr fmj BT. The point by itself will make a considerable difference relative to the Ballistic Coefficient.

The berger bullet you mentioned is below. If we are comparing boat tail to flat base, then as I said the ogives have to be identical.