HD Tactical

About 14 shots by an officer to stop a knife wielding attacker

The #1 community for Gun Owners of the Gulf Coast States

Member Benefits:

  • Fewer Ads!
  • Discuss all aspects of firearm ownership
  • Discuss anti-gun legislation
  • Buy, sell, and trade in the classified section
  • Chat with Local gun shops, ranges, trainers & other businesses
  • Discover free outdoor shooting areas
  • View up to date on firearm-related events
  • Share photos & video with other members
  • ...and so much more!
  • FrommerStop

    Master
    Rating - 0%
    0   0   0
    Joined
    Apr 7, 2016
    Messages
    6,908
    Points
    113
    Location
    NWFL
    Remembering also. Some different drugs increase the heart rate and actually deminish the lungs capacity to oxygenate the blood.
    If that,pokeing a couple holes in the heart,lung,aorta,and major blood supply routes could be the BG's worst enemy. (Freddy Gray ??) ESPECIALLY . . combined with elevated heart rate. --- SAWMAN
    Perhaps a more powerful round like the 10mmmight be able to break critical parts of the skeleton causing an attacker to fall. I say perhaps because I am not sure what it takes to snap a femur or shatter a pelvis.
    I do keep a 12 ga pump shotgun around the house with the tube loaded with #4 buck. At close range probably 3 or 4 center of mass hits will stop most people.
    I remember a Story I was told second hand by a Filipina. A friend of hers at the university had been a soldier and they had juar, this was in late 60's or early 70's, burned a muslim village using the village gas pump to set the fire. A man came out of the smoke with a big kris and a soldier in front of him emptied his M16 into the attacker. The amok attacker did not stop and split the head of the first soldier. The soldier that told the story said he turned and ran. Not really clear if the attacker was hit, but he likely was.
     

    Jester896

    Master
    GCGF Supporter
    Rating - 100%
    10   0   0
    Joined
    May 14, 2017
    Messages
    2,559
    Points
    113
    Location
    SW GA
    in the video...was the malfunction caused by the attacker after she used her pistol to block a stab/cut? Body cam footage is very wide and distorts somewhat be the attacker was far closer than they probably appeared in the video...isn't that somewhat true?
     

    SAWMAN

    Master
    Rating - 100%
    9   0   0
    Joined
    Oct 21, 2012
    Messages
    13,937
    Points
    113
    Location
    Cantonment,Fla.
    I have put quite a few rds thru my Glock 20 in the last 16 years. Quite a bit of different ammo was tried. From the higher vels in the 155 ahd 165gr weights,to the hardcast 200 and 230gr loads. And tons of the 200gr Blazer loads in between,which are fairly hot.
    If I were a rural county deputy I would opt for a Glock 20. NOT some 1911 that was magically transformed into a high pressure chambered gun over a 45ACP.
    But without proper training and range time making the gun go pew,pew,pew,the "laws of deminishing returns" would come into play.
    With proper practice and expierance you can learn to manage a trigger reset without full fwd movement. You can also accomplish a double tap (controlled pairs) drill pretty effectively with pretty close to the speed and accuracy of a Glock 17. But what department is gonna keep it's officers swimming in 10mm ammo ??
    The 10mm Auto would be better. But it is still no rifle. However a 10mm with a 16" bbl,fireing the right ammo,using a 15 shot Glock 20 mag,and a super short stock (12" LOP is all that is really needed) would be a thought of mine.
    Oh well . . . . ?? ---- SAWMAN
     

    9mm

    Shooter
    Rating - 0%
    0   0   0
    Joined
    Jan 24, 2018
    Messages
    94
    Points
    8
    Location
    Mobile

    FrommerStop

    Master
    Rating - 0%
    0   0   0
    Joined
    Apr 7, 2016
    Messages
    6,908
    Points
    113
    Location
    NWFL
    She is a hottie
    I do not know how it is now, but in the past some departments were leery of their personnel training off site or competing. Back about 2002 I told that some of the Pensacola Police that had been coming out to shoot IDPA at the ERML club of the time were told to stop. Not sure if that is true now days.
     

    9mm

    Shooter
    Rating - 0%
    0   0   0
    Joined
    Jan 24, 2018
    Messages
    94
    Points
    8
    Location
    Mobile
    Report reads a total of 6 rounds fired, six hits, she was very conservative with her rounds. In this linked story above as reference.
     

    wildrider666

    Master
    Rating - 0%
    0   0   0
    Joined
    Sep 26, 2012
    Messages
    8,753
    Points
    113
    Location
    Panama City Beach, Fl
    In reference to the first OP article:

    Officer prevailed, well done. Nothing below is intended to be derogatory. Just my limited perceptions. I haven't seen both full vids nor viewed in slow motion, just in play/stop/play. We don't know the location or number of hits, caliber, cartridge or Toxicology report. We do see the amount of fight in the dog and Officer skill/survival under extreame pressure.

    1. The specifics of the 21 foot Rule don't apply. Hopefully, the Officer knew there was potential Threat from Dispatch communications. First thing is always Check hands: Confirmed Threat. BG and Officer exited approximately the same time, watch Squad driver door mirror move. BG had both weapons in view which trigger Officer to draw so it wasn't a suprise. First directional movement of Threat confirms "Intent". Officer's Commands are Reflexive, just like the Draw. They are used during Official Training and Qualification. The Threat distance closed significantly before BG charged and Officer began using lethal force.

    2. I think the Officer was initially using the Squad door as a physical barrier. The BG used the Squad as a partial shield and the Officer may have thought the Squad was initially an adequate buffer based on BGs slow movement and veering to Officers Right. Officer may have maintained her position forward by the door to keep BG in view/sight picture.

    3. Officer should have fired much earlier as Orders were ignored and BG advanced (the speed of the advance does not reduce the level of Threat). In today's social, political and sometimes Department pressure, there is always the potential for related hesitation to act, its unknow if this slowed the Officers decision to Fire. The Officer backs up and the Squad and partially open door could have obstructed view and prevented clear shot(s).

    4. BG charges, the Officer (continues the backup throught the first engagement) fires but no visible result and BG gets to the Officer. We could speculate on "contact" occurring a step or two in either direction but its clear that the exchange at close contact was a situation changer. Tactically, the Officer should have planted herself then moved left or right in an attempt to avoid contact. That can not be done aggressively enough while back peddling.

    5. Officers support hand (L) defends to keep some distance and knife away (weapons in both BGs hands can not be isolated by one hand). BGs L/hand with screwdriver rakes Officer's R forearm and pistol. As firing continues, RESULTS allow seperation (collectively or one of the "in close contact" shots is what slowed the attack which otherwise could have been fatal to her at that point), fires more and a round hits screwdriver (breaks handle) and both weapons dropped. Firearm functioned "after contact".

    6. Officer Clears an unknow malfunction or trigger reset issue as BG with slower movement bends down to pick up both weapons, Threat continues. It is now where the advantage shifts to the officer. This is a point where the Officer had a window of oppertunity to create more seperation. Second engagement: Officer (in place) resumes firing and BG stands in place with weapons, slightly bent. Officer fires more as She advances on the BG. An auible groan is heard and BG falls. Officer stops firing. BG lands on his side but it takes a few seconds for the lights to go out before neck relaxes and head rests on the street.

    7. As soon as the Officer stopped firing, she should have changed mags due to the high volumn of fire. Never assume the Threat is over, confirm it. The BGs car still needs to be Cleared.

    8. The Officer fought back, not an unusual term even for an armed person who is attacked. She didn't quit when faced with lack of results to her effort or upon physical contact. She created her advantage and pursued aggressively to stop the Threat. Training, Skill, Will to survive, Luck, Guardian Angel: She prevailed!
     

    FrommerStop

    Master
    Rating - 0%
    0   0   0
    Joined
    Apr 7, 2016
    Messages
    6,908
    Points
    113
    Location
    NWFL
    In reference to the first OP article:

    Officer prevailed, well done. Nothing below is intended to be derogatory. Just my limited perceptions. I haven't seen both full vids nor viewed in slow motion, just in play/stop/play. We don't know the location or number of hits, caliber, cartridge or Toxicology report. We do see the amount of fight in the dog and Officer skill/survival under extreame pressure.

    1. The specifics of the 21 foot Rule don't apply. Hopefully, the Officer knew there was potential Threat from Dispatch communications. First thing is always Check hands: Confirmed Threat. BG and Officer exited approximately the same time, watch Squad driver door mirror move. BG had both weapons in view which trigger Officer to draw so it wasn't a suprise. First directional movement of Threat confirms "Intent". Officer's Commands are Reflexive, just like the Draw. They are used during Official Training and Qualification. The Threat distance closed significantly before BG charged and Officer began using lethal force.

    ......
    While a specific distance may not apply, the basic warning is there. A person with a knife, even if your gun is out must not be allowed to close the distance. What is implicit in the 21 foot rule is that a knife man can rapidly close the distance. In this case the knife man did get very close. The incomplete nature of the footage is not giving all of the details.

    For the officer if they let the knife man get too close I wonder how effective the soft body armor is in protecting against injury.
    The presence of the soft body armor would have been of some protective use. But the inside of her arms, thighs, throat , and head that have vulnerable areas are not protected. I am not sure how sure how well modern soft armor serves against a thrust from pointed weapons like the screw driver that was being used as sort of a parrying dagger, a style of sword fighting that was in style a few hundred years ago.

    A few years ago there was body armor that was intended specifically to protect against stabbing weapons.
     

    Duckyou

    I don’t give a Weiner shit!
    Rating - 100%
    14   0   0
    Joined
    May 9, 2020
    Messages
    4,041
    Points
    113
    Location
    Gulf Breeze
    They are still around, but have been largely replaced, or at least supplemented, by the AR-15. Pistols, no matter the caliber or bullet used, are a weapon of connivence, but they are very inefficient at stopping people


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

    Not if you hit them.
     

    Duckyou

    I don’t give a Weiner shit!
    Rating - 100%
    14   0   0
    Joined
    May 9, 2020
    Messages
    4,041
    Points
    113
    Location
    Gulf Breeze
    While a specific distance may not apply, the basic warning is there. A person with a knife, even if your gun is out must not be allowed to close the distance. What is implicit in the 21 foot rule is that a knife man can rapidly close the distance. In this case the knife man did get very close. The incomplete nature of the footage is not giving all of the details.

    For the officer if they let the knife man get too close I wonder how effective the soft body armor is in protecting against injury.
    The presence of the soft body armor would have been of some protective use. But the inside of her arms, thighs, throat , and head that have vulnerable areas are not protected. I am not sure how sure how well modern soft armor serves against a thrust from pointed weapons like the screw driver that was being used as sort of a parrying dagger, a style of sword fighting that was in style a few hundred years ago.

    A few years ago there was body armor that was intended specifically to protect against stabbing weapons.

    Someone good with a knife can make a few cuts to areas that are not protected (you mentioned) and you will not live 2 minutes - thigh, under arm, throat. Most of the people who the cops run into are likely untrained, though.
     

    Jdcujo

    Master
    Rating - 100%
    4   0   0
    Joined
    Dec 8, 2019
    Messages
    1,836
    Points
    113
    Location
    Pace
    Shes a competition shooter if this videos the same one I saw not too long ago. Betting those shots made good hits, but people forget even center mass it takes a while to stop a threat due to blood loss. That's not taking into account if the knife wielding idiot was on drugs .
     

    wildrider666

    Master
    Rating - 0%
    0   0   0
    Joined
    Sep 26, 2012
    Messages
    8,753
    Points
    113
    Location
    Panama City Beach, Fl
    While a specific distance may not apply, the basic warning is there. A person with a knife, even if your gun is out must not be allowed to close the distance. What is implicit in the 21 foot rule is that a knife man can rapidly close the distance. In this case the knife man did get very close. The incomplete nature of the footage is not giving all of the details.
    ............

    The 21 foot Rule is based on Lt. D. Tueller's study and recognition of close threats. He didn't call it a Rule, he just put the problem and response needed out there. A BG can sprint 21 feet in 1.5 seconds. The Officer (defender) must draw and fire 2 unsighted shots within that 1.5 seconds. Since draw is included: Suprise, Recognition, Shock delay followed by brain initiated motor skill to draw were not limited to a hypothetical 1.5 seconds. With the Dispatchers radio call: She is mentally prepared for a Threat and BG displayed weapons but didn't immediately sprint toward her: as such, that 1.5 seconds was not a limiting factor. If half of the "21 foot Rule" parameters are off the table: its not applicable.

    What existed was a "armed sandoff" with an advancing armed Threat. They both exit vehicle at the same time (again watch her door mirror), my guesstimate is 18-22 ft seperation. BG stopped his movement a few times. We don't ignore the fact that 21 feet can be tansitioned very fast but we are drawn, sighted, moving or positioned (barriers+-), evaluating, giving commands and taking appropriate actions. We also know that "two hits" may not stop the Threat. We should know that we can't shoot a BG holding a blade and standing in place at 21+- feet based on that fact alone.

     

    BowChamp

    Expert
    Rating - 100%
    8   0   0
    Joined
    Jan 19, 2013
    Messages
    386
    Points
    63
    Just watched the video. It appears the first round to hit the perp was when he pushed the officers pistol down. Look as if it hit him in the left groin, hip area. Because he had his hand on top of the officers pistol, when this shot was fired, it malfunctioned. She did a great job of clearing her firearm. Up to this shot, you can see her pistol shooting mostly to the left, some to the right. From the way her pistol was bouncing around in her hand, I'd say she didn't have very good control of it.

    Very glad to see her go home and him to the morgue.
     

    stage20

    Master
    GCGF Supporter
    Rating - 100%
    89   0   0
    Joined
    Jun 30, 2018
    Messages
    8,137
    Points
    113
    Location
    pensacola
    Shots are just like a nail in a tire. Tire will go till there is no air pressure. These fools high as a kite and adrenaline rush will go down just like that tire. The time that it takes is unknown.
     

    Duckyou

    I don’t give a Weiner shit!
    Rating - 100%
    14   0   0
    Joined
    May 9, 2020
    Messages
    4,041
    Points
    113
    Location
    Gulf Breeze
    If you think anyone can take 14 shots to center mass without body armor and keep running, then I have a bridge to sell you...

    Not even meth, crack, PCP, and X can get you through that trauma.
     

    wildrider666

    Master
    Rating - 0%
    0   0   0
    Joined
    Sep 26, 2012
    Messages
    8,753
    Points
    113
    Location
    Panama City Beach, Fl
    How about 21 or 17? You can keep the bridge. Lol


    This one is only 17 but two assailants with shotgun and 9mm. Victim got off one shot from a derringer.
     
    Top Bottom