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Compulsory Service???

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  • MauserLarry

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    I've always thought a 1-2 year service to the country is a fine idea. The only place I differ is females to be included also. It would stop a lot of the bitchin' that goes on in this country and would instill some work ethic into folks nowadays. We can't seem to hire any people that really want to work anymore. You develop a lot of character scrubbing a big galvanized garbage can with brillo pads. As far as the people that don't want to go along we had ways to motivate them then that probably wouldn't float now.
     

    IronBeard

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    Israel and Switzerland have much longer history of military service, and the service idea is ingrained in the people, it seems to work for them..


    with these snowflakes today, many 3rd generation from the 60"s and 70's hippy generation, I don't see it a benefit....

    they would die on their knees begging for their life if captured, not on their feet fighting...

    Not sure about Switzerland, but IIRC, Israel requires their men to serve. They have until sometime in their 20's to sign up so they have time to finish school and generally get their lives in order. I even believe they can get a delayed entry if they are newly married. Once they have done their active duty time, they are in the reserve until somewhere around 50. Not sure how that would work here.....

    In response to other posts, I'm sorry to say that after over 30 years of first-hand observation, there is definitely an entitlement mentality among many. Money for school, VA benefits, child care/special provisions for that, automatic promotion after X months/years, Monday-Friday 0730-1630, guaranteed job of choice after separation/retirement, etc. I will not go into the entitlements certain groups expect, but trust me, that is there too.

    IMO, one of the worst mistakes ever was labeling anyone in uniform a hero, because some now think they are heroes just because they wear the uniform and are entitled to hero treatment. Can't really blame 'em, we call 'em heroes. Fact is everyone has the potential to be a hero, we won't know until they are put to the test. Folks in the military are obviously more likely to be put to the test than the average guy on the street. However, and sorry if this hurts feelings, you are not a a hero until you've earned the title, and you are not a a hero simply because of your clothes, head gear, unit, or branch of service, and yes that includes first responders. Sorry guys, but we've cheapened the title of hero by applying it to way too many without merit, and it has gone to the heads of those that don't deserve it. And now back to the show.........
     
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    Little Jack

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    I'm with Frank. In my head, I think some sort of service could help the individual as well as the country. Not necessarily military but something public. It would give the local/state/fed a manpower pool to hopefully get some decent work done. I liked Heinlein's idea of earning a say through service but at the same time, I feel like it goes against the idea of the democratic REBUBLIC. I've also seen how the Gov can mess up a good thing so I'd have significant concern that a system like this could be abused by the bureaucrats and those with money/conncetions.

    I don't think military should be mandatory. The cost to train/equip a larger force would be a detriment and you'd be watering down the skills/capabilities with less than motivated individuals and the watered down training/equipment.

    Trying to compare us to Switzerland/Israel fails miserably. Differences in population, geography, politics etc don't make for an easy transfer to the US. Similar to comparisons with healthcare and gun laws, one size does not fit all.

    I appreciate those that have served but it's by no means the best measure to make judgements on someone's character or ability to do anything outside of the military. I've known/know plenty of dipshidiots in the military. Some have made it to be a CO of an aviation squadron. Not because they were that good, just because they stuck around and managed to not completely mess something up on the way. I don't want to detract from those that have sacrificed and that truly are gifted and capable leaders but it's easy for a politician to throw out the "I served" to get brownie points.
     

    FLT

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    So, I'm old enough to remember when the judge would give you the choice of enlisting in the miliatry or going to prison, anyone else remember those days?
     

    Telum Pisces

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    There will always be those that wear the American flag for a t shirt, lift their trucks 6 inches and claim “U.S. numba 1” but never served and have no intelligible points to stand on.

    Would you rather them wave some other flag or not be proud to be lucky enough to be born in the greatest country on earth?

    As someone that has "supported the war fighter" directly for going on 15 years now (civil service) having not served in a war zone directly does not mean folks can't be proud of our country!

    I've not "served", but I have been directly involved in supporting those that have in life and death situations. My work now puts warheads on foreheads. I make sure the men and women get the very best on the battle field.

    But as long as they wave our flag proudly, I have no problem with anyone that wants to be a proud American in their own way!
     

    MauserLarry

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    So, I'm old enough to remember when the judge would give you the choice of enlisting in the miliatry or going to prison, anyone else remember those days?

    Yep, one of my best buddies at Fort Knox was there because of a car theft charge. He was a good guy, a good tanker, he just made his living in a poor choice area and got caught.
     

    MAXman

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    I don't think red is saying the only way too be a proud American is by serving in the military. I think he's saying that if someone has no intelligible reasons as too why they are so proud, it comes across as hollow.
    Likewise, if someone has a Foriegn flag hanging off thier mirror, and when asked will say they're proud of where they(or their family) is from and how it made them who they are, I can respect that. But if they say "cus I'm Italian lol, why you ask r u racist" or whatever, well...

    I think if you're gonna wear, promote,wave etc anything, you should be able to explain it further than just a one line catch phrase.
     

    Red

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    I don't think red is saying the only way too be a proud American is by serving in the military. I think he's saying that if someone has no intelligible reasons as too why they are so proud, it comes across as hollow.
    Likewise, if someone has a Foriegn flag hanging off thier mirror, and when asked will say they're proud of where they(or their family) is from and how it made them who they are, I can respect that. But if they say "cus I'm Italian lol, why you ask r u racist" or whatever, well...

    I think if you're gonna wear, promote,wave etc anything, you should be able to explain it further than just a one line catch phrase.
    ^^^^yep, this^^^^
     

    Mouser

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    many years ago when the US was entrenched in the middle East, my dad asked me why I thought the military/war etc was relatively supported by the citizens with a generally positive disposition...remember, his point of reference was the Vietnam era where most of his friends and classmates found themselves; mostly against their will. He was not drafted as he was married with my brother born in 1965 so the rules of the time did not select him.

    Anyways, my reply was that I thought the main reasons the war was greeted with so much optimism/goodwill/ almost popularity was 1) because our armed forces are an entirely volunteer force and 2) most Americans that can remember are embarrassed about how our armed forces were viewed and treated during the Vietnam era and will not repeat that mistake again...at least that was and still is my opinion.

    A draft forces people to serve and would not be generally popular. I do feel though, serving with honor in our armed forces should be a path to citizenship for people desiring to gain citizenship. People who fight for, bleed for and die for our flag are not likely to stomp it in the ground or abuse/take for granted what it is to be an American.
     

    MauserLarry

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    "most Americans that can remember are embarrassed about how our armed forces were viewed and treated during the Vietnam era". I was never treated badly or rudely or spit on at any time and never remember anybody else complaining of such treatment. I certainly wouldn't argue with somebody that made such claims because I never left the US and all my time was served in the South where it seems that military service is more favorably looked on than in other regions. I would describe it as more of a feeling of indifference toward the military than anything, nobody worshiped you but nobody threw rocks at you either.
     

    Red

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    I have read about and watched plenty documentaries about our brave that served in Vietnam and the way they were treated on their return. I was not even born yet but am appalled at the way they were treated. Its saddens me that our own people would treat our own warriors so badly upon their return from such a tough fight.

    A tough fight regardless or whether right or wrong or whatever reasons took us there in the first place. I think the American public is far from treating today's soldiers in the same way whether cause they remember or cause of guilt or whatever. I thank the Vietnam guys from the bottom of my heart. Because of them, our military today is treated better and our pay and benefits are fantastic in my opinion. At least on the active side. I hear once you are separated that the big green machine does not care about you anymore and the VA is just another corporate entity full of bureaucracy that is trying to save a buck. I don't know and cant speak intelligently to that subject.

    I think ultimately looking into the big picture of things, America, my dear America has lost its center on the world stage and its a matter of time before someone thinks they can push us around more than just politically. We toss around sanctions like candy and history shows you can only sanction some countries so much before they see that as a hostile act and an act of war. Think about if we were sanctioned to the point were we could not pay our troops and feed our people? How long until someone that can crunch numbers says hey, we have 12mo left of provisions and 6mo in reserve, if we don't shake off these sanctions or attack the country choking us then we are vulnerable to first economic and ultimately territorial take over.

    I've enjoyed reading everyone's point of view and some very good points have been brought up. I think in a big conventional war we can all agree it would be a meat grinder and you have to feed the machine. Regardless of individual beliefs left, right, or center, a fight for survival would need a rifle in the hand of men and women even though they wouldn't want to be there. Back a scared dog into a corner and see if he wont bite you. I think even the problem children when having rounds "crack" next to their dome piece will aim and fire if nothing else just to preserve their own life.
     

    SAWMAN

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    It is typical for one Vietnam vet to tell another . . . "WELCOME HOME".
    Reason for this . . . if you don't know . . . you wouldn't understand. --- SAWMAN
     

    nitro

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    I think that there should be mandatory service for every person, even the handicapped, if they can be accommodated. I not saying send them to war, but I've worked with many handicapped vets at the base, making good money. They can hold a job. But a three year commitment from these kids straight out of high school would do a lot for them. Besides thinking they're grown up, they need to learn following orders, caring about how you look and carry yourself, quality and pride in good workmanship, etc. Then, once their mandatory service time is up, they are eligible for either college or vocational training, at government expense.
     

    MAXman

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    Nitro, to argue against myself here,

    I'm pretty sure that if 20% of the nations 18-28 demographic served we wouldn't be able to maintain the cost of the gi bill. The VA can't seem to keep up with whatever percent of the less than 10% of veterans that qualify now, so that system would have to go through a major ground up overhaul also.

    However. Everybody would also have a couple years hands on experience and training for a potential career/job(with the exception of most combat arms, unfortunately.)
     

    nitro

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    I don't know about todays GI bill. When I served, we received the Vietnam ERA GI bill. I served 5 years. By the time I got out, I had matured enough to start appreciating all the things that I lacked as an 18 year old. Amazing how much I grew up during that time. I went to college after that and earned two degrees, while working full time and having a family. You have to work hard. I never gave up. If I had went to college straight out of HS I wouldn't be where I am, I can tell you. I'd probably be in jail. Or homeless. Or dead.
     

    nitro

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    As far as the cost, I have no explanation for how we do that. Maybe it would reduce costs in other areas, such as HUD, and food stamps and all the other handout programs. But I don't know, I'm damn sure not a politician.
     

    MAXman

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    Yeah there's a lot that goes into the concept.
    If it makes you feel any better nitro, I don't think politicians put that much thought and effort into complicated concepts and issues. If they did maybe they'd be able to, oh I don't know, pass a budget.
     

    nitro

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    I agree 100% with you on that point, Max. Like I said, that's why we're not politicians.
     

    Snake-Eyes

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    You know I've put a lot of thought into this and...
    Another point, it'd really curb the feelings of entitlement many veterans display. I mean if every able body American put their time in it really takes away all the special, doesn't it?

    Good points Maxman.

    I absolutely agree it would curb that chip on the shoulder sense of entitlement that most of this generation of veterans seem to carry. Everything needs a discount, free meals are not enough, should never have to pay for a beer again etc. If everyone took a bite of the action I suspect everyone would be less impressed and the whole guilty hero worship would disappear.



    I suggest you both go put some more thought into it.

    1) Anyone who volunteers to serve in the US military and sacrifice up to and including their Life for this beloved Country deserves the gratitude of their fellow citizens. Period. So, yes, they are "entitled" to that gratitude.
    2) I'm not sure what self-centered pricks you two have had the unfortunate "luck" to deal with, but I wholeheartedly disagree that it is "most of this generation of veterans". My brothers and sisters in uniform have Every Right to be proud of their service. Not a single one of them has a chip on their shoulder about it. Most are, in fact, Quiet Professionals about it all.

    Wanna know what a Nation that thinks military service is a mandatory job, and not a special calling, looks like? Check out some of our adversaries. Spoiler alert: we tend to beat those guys fairly easily. I want our military to feel special, and appreciated.

    I find your statements (quoted above) troublesome. Here's why.

    You both speak of your service. This tends to "validate" your opinion to those who never served. Then they may get the idea that yeah, maybe those service-members really are all "entitled" jack-offs with chips on our shoulders, so their service is not important.

    And for what? Because we ask if there's a military discount at a restaurant?

    Seriously? Do you begrudge the same discounts offered to law enforcement or first responders?

    How many meals have you scarfed down because of f-ed up duty hours? How many MRE's in a no-kidding shithole country? How many missed holidays, anniversaries, birthdays, kids born, pets died, family funerals, family weddings, vacations, school events, etc the list never stops. EVER.

    Those in uniform now are VOLUNTEERS. Why would you want them to be treated like they've done nothing at all?

    You know, when you give someone a gift, you don't expect them to pay you for it. You only hope that they no kidding appreciate it, and maybe, they'll take good care of it.

    These volunteers sacrifice a staggering amount, so that the collective US Military can give this Country the gift of subconscious peace of mind. Ask yourself what is different about the streets of Baghdad, or Kabul, and Anytown, USA? How many girls walk home by themselves from school in those other countries? Which downtowns are riddled with bullet holes and bomb damage? Any permanent checkpoints or Heska barriers in downtown around here? How many IEDs around here? Seen any foreign military riding around in their own vehicles, trying to fight our battles downtown for us? There isn't enough money in the world to repay that sense of security. So gratitude will have to do. I think a discount on a meal is a humbling way for a civilian to say "Thanks".
    I think someone UN-assing their couch to go Vote is a great way to say "Thanks". I don't expect those niceties, but I appreciate them. We're entitled to gratitude, and it can be in any form: a verbal thank-you, a non-verbal act of responsible citizenship like voting, removing your cover during the national anthem, whatever. But citizens need to feel like they owe someone something for this great privilege of being a US citizen. I'm not saying they have to actually give a vet a free whatever, but they need to feel like these freedoms are not just "expected" and can be taken for granted like they don't cost anything.

    I'd encourage every single vet, separated or retired, to goto the VA and make sure they get every single "benefit" out there. Why? Because they EARNED it. And no, the paycheck doesn't cover it. We get paid a small percentage of what a civilian counterpart gets paid. We spend the rest of our lives knowing the next Agent Orange discovery might suck away the remaining days we have left. Heck, one day those damn plastic burn pits are probably gonna make us all think we smoked a pack a day...

    You honestly think that more people volunteering to serve "takes away the special", and "everyone would be less impressed"?

    I disagree. The more volunteers, the better. Conscripts would waste resources we don't have and drive collective morale down the drain. As far as who's impressed, who cares? I know what I've accomplished. My family does, too. They've endured more than anyone will probably ever thank them for. Those discounts at meals, or whatever "entitlements" you think of, in my mind, they go to them, not me. Because I don't care who you are or what you're selling, no one will ever be able to give us those lost memories back.

    But I'm sure I just sound like an entitled ass with a chip on my shoulder, right?

    The only chip I have is when someone pisses on the freedoms we have or acts like those who provide them didn't do anything "special"...

    You can take every single "benefit" away, the day every single American is Proud to be one. Until then, fuck yeah, we're entitled to some gratitude for helping keep the lights on and the monsters away.
     

    wildrider666

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    Mandatory conscripted Service (mil/civil): No.
    Selective Service Draft for Military Service when authorized under current provisions of Law: No. With changes to the Laws to eliminate all Deferments and separate classifications except age min/max and applicable to females also. Yes! If we are in fact all equal people of this Nation, then all eligible should register and serve when called.

    The Draft is like a gun law: law abiding citizen will comply while criminals will haul ass (fully expecting clemency/pardon down the road).

    Isn't a draft dodger basically a citizen who has surrendered to the Enemy by their unwillingness to fight them? Any resource denied your Country weakens it, leaving the Enemy with less opposition to overcome. Sure there will be opinions of unjust war, not our fight, blah, blah, blah., ...... Doesn't matter! If it gets to the point of a Draft, it is with the full lawful direction of the Gov. You just watch the lottery balls pop out to see where your number comes up and wait to see how deep the call up goes. In a big war or one going badly everybody goes sooner or later. It could be for two years or the duration of War.

    There is a lot of negative comments about draftees here. Other then the true "I didn't volunteer for this shit" comments and a prevailing itch to get back Stateside, they served as well as anybody else IMHO. I have no idea how the current target draftee population would conduct themselves.
     
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