Here's my take:

I don't think anyone want's a terrorist to have a weapon, neither do we want them flying around on airplanes. But putting a person on a "no-fly" or "Terrorist Watch" list without any formal judicial process is worrisome. On the other hand, holding a trial before the government is allowed suspect someone is not very practical either.

Of course, as long as being on the list doesn't impact your rights, the problem is minimized. The the instant you are denied boarding on an aircraft or a gun dealer refuses to sell you a gun, then it is a problem, a BIG problem.

I propose that the NRA/TRUMP/Congress develop a law requiring the government to formally charge you with a crime within 72 hours after your rights are taken away either because you can't fly or because you can't purchase a gun. If they can't do that within 72 hours, then you MUST be removed from the list and your rights immediately restored.

Periodically the keepers of these "lists" must go before a panel of Federal Judges and justify EVERY name on that list. If they can't, then that person MUST be removed.

Protecting us from terrorists is the job of the government, but it is NOT the job of the government to restrict our rights without due process.

if their name contains, achmed, mohammad, ali, etc, etc,, throw them out of the country, no fly list and terror watch list will decrease dramatically

fl57caveman said:

if their name contains, achmed, mohammad, ali, etc, etc,, throw them out of the country, no fly list and terror watch list will decrease dramatically

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They'll just repopulate it with Bills, Teds, Waynes etc

Little Jack's Guns said:

They'll just repopulate it with Bills, Teds, Waynes etc

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Exactly. The head of the Department of Homeland Security has already stated that homegrown "right wing" extremism is equal in threat to the homeland as Islamic terrorism. Just the other day he said gun control should now fall under the jurisdiction of the Dept. of Homeland Security. Not hard to solve that equation and see where he's going.

Who will make the determination of what defines homegrown right wing extremism? Will it be groups who talk of limited government and strict adherence to the Constitution? Folks who converse on message boards such as this? Many on the right sold their souls to the devil supporting the original Patriot act under Cheney. The foundation and laws are being implemented for an unprecedented power grab and death blow to our individual rights.

It doesn't look good and I'm not sure electing Donald Trump will do anything to slow it down. He's an authoritarian at heart and doesn't respect the checks and balances and acknowledgment of unalienable rights in the Constitution. I bet the Donald feels those rights were granted and not acknowledged by the Constitution.

Once a department or law is made it NEVER gets repelled. It becomes like a living organism and it's number one priority is to survive and flourish. I'll take Trump over Hillary but he's not the answer and no one President really can turn it around. They probably need one more generation of brainwashed citizens to make enough soldiers and law enforcement officers willing to enforce the tyranny.

Mozella said:

I propose that the NRA/TRUMP/Congress develop a law requiring the government to formally charge you with a crime within 72 hours after your rights are taken away either because you can't fly or because you can't purchase a gun. If they can't do that within 72 hours, then you MUST be removed from the list and your rights immediately restored.

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Sounds kinda like the proposed “Shield Act"...

Texas senator John Cornyn, a Republican, has proposed the “Shield Act,” which would give the attorney general the authority to delay by up to three business days the sale of a firearm to anyone who is a known or suspected terrorist, or who has been the subject of a terrorism investigation in the last five years. If the AG believes that there is probable cause that the prospective buyer is involved in terrorism, and a judge agrees, he can block the sale and take the individual into custody.

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After Orlando, A New Assault on the Bill of Rights

someone sent me this the other day:
"If the government can revoke your right to access firearms simply because it has decided to place you on a secret, notoriously inaccurate list, it could presumably restrict your other rights in a similar manner. You could be forbidden from advocating for causes you believe in, or associating with like-minded activists; your right against intrusive, unreasonable searches could be suspended. And you would have no recourse: The government could simply declare that, as a name on a covert list, you are owed no due process at all."

Mozella said:

Protecting us from terrorists is the job of the government, but it is NOT the job of the government to restrict our rights without due process.

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See I disagree with this. It's no ones "job" to protect me and my family. It's mine and mine alone. It's been the government convincing people that it's up to them to do this and that that has convinced people that it's OK for the government to do this and that? I think I said that right????

Yes, the government should do it's best to keep out the threats from outside our borders which they have done a horrible job doing. But here in my daily life, it's my job to protect myself and my family. I do so multiple ways. One of them is by voting for people that I think will serve me the best and represent me the best. Government needs to get back to serving the people and not something that rules over them. We are supposed to be the ones in control and they should be serving us. But people have lost that motto. They don't vote for people to serve them. They vote for the best person to govern "over" them. That needs to change.

An American citizen can be placed on this "no fly list" without being notified, without being accused of a crime, without being convicted of a crime and without legal recourse. Dead people have been placed on this list. Children have been placed on this list. My ex-gf was placed on this list. Ted Kennedy was placed on this list.

If you think for one second that this list needs to be used to stop people from buying weapons, then you are an authoritarian-statist and have failed to understand what Liberty is or what the US Constitution is for. In such case, please remove yourself from any 2nd Amendment advocacy. We have no use for that.

Read carefully especially (I), (II) and (III) below. Is not the Government and Civilian populace being coerced by Domestic Terrorism to attact the 2A and gun Rights of American Citizens?


Under current United States law, set forth in the*USA PATRIOT Act, acts of domestic terrorism are those which: "(A) involve acts dangerous to human life that are a violation of the criminal laws of the United States or of any State; (B) appear to be intended— (i) to intimidate or coerce a civilian population; (ii) to influence the policy of a government by intimidation or coercion; or (iii) to affect the conduct of a government by mass destruction, assassination, or kidnapping; and (C) occur primarily within the territorial jurisdiction of the United States."

Who says the U.S. Gov doesn't deal with terrorists? This and Bergdahl too.

So how does A, B & C not apply to the economic extortion and terrorism of the ACLU........
Ed

The ACLU finally addresses the no fly list and the 2A. The Letter is very anti gun and really only focuses on the Government's denying due process rather then 2A Rights.

https://www.aclu.org/letter/aclu-le...mendment-4749-and-feinstein-amendment-4720-hr

The prez and anti gun movement have been pushing for adding all people on the no fly list as Restricted Persons who may not buy/own firearms. This issue has been pushed hard since the San Bernardino incident.

The ACLU has had a Lawsuit against the no fly list for over five years. The Gov says people have no Constitutional Right to fly. We the People sure as hell have 2A Rights amoung others that would be trampled if the Restriction became Law.

https://www.aclu.org/blog/speak-fre...it-shouldnt-be-used-restrict-peoples-freedoms

https://www.aclu.org/cases/latif-et-al-v-holder-et-al-aclu-challenge-government-no-fly-list

Of course we all understand that what happened to the jews all started with a list, a list that once made you could not get off of until you went into the oven.
Ed

I think we are really gonna get messed up. Lets see first what the NRA and whoever comes up with for due process and the way the list is made and maintained. Nothing we can do about it here where we sit and voting for Hillary is not an option. I am just glad I am in the Evening part of my life and will not see the USA be destroyed from within.

Speaking of list, last night I heard Billo ask our Orange Overlord "what if you buy a big rifle [his words] for whatever reason, should you have to register that so the FBI knows the serial number and knows you have it?" and Trump twice dodged answering the question. A simple "NO" would have sufficed quite nicely.

Rapier said:

Of course we all understand that what happened to the jews all started with a list, a list that once made you could not get off of until you went into the oven.
Ed

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every country I can think of that started with gun registration, ended badly for the people...
millons killed with out arms to defend themselves, from their own govt....


I will not comply