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20 Injured in Shooting at Oregon Community College

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  • JBryan314

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    Next, we'll hear that he was on some psych meds...

    And then we will hear people blame the meds.

    "All of the killers were on antidepressants! That's no coincidence!"

    Yeah, no shit. It's not a coincidence that someone who had problems severe enough to need medication actually lost their mind and did something tragic.

    "But worsening depression can be a side effect of antidepressants!"

    Yeah. And what are the side effects of remaining depressed and doing nothing to help it?


    We have one group blaming the guns, one group blaming lack of mental healthcare, one group blaming too much mental healthcare (the meds) and one group who is actually blaming the killers themselves.
     

    MAXman

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    I'm not gonna defend that shit stain, but Bryan, many of us believe that depression and other mental issues can have severe negative affects on people's decision making skills. Sometimes these issues are temporary, some times chronic.

    Our countries current handling of mental health issues leaves something to be desires, IMO. Someone qouted Wikipedia stating our prisons are being used as an asylum system. This is in fact also taught in criminal justice programs at colleges and universities. Thursday morning I hear a report that face to face discussion as treatment for depression has been misrepresented in publications, who only phblicize positive results, and may be up to 25% less affective than commonly believed. That's a huge %.
    As far as medications, there's plenty of people who think mood altering and psychotropic drugs have negative side affects. At least, the self monitoring use of the drugs is a less than ideal way to administer. And something to consider, I'll bet a number of memebers here think child vaccination is over the top. So I'm not suprised people dislike the wide spread use of medication to treat issues. And old fashioned talking about it may not be as effective as we think. And our country is moving to reduce prison populations, not increase.

    I think everyone here wants to know why it happened, and how to prevent it. Or at least how to react to the next case better. None of us want to see gun control, and none of us like seeing young student blown away for any reason(especially if it's politically or religiously motivated). But I don't doubt there's a memeber on this board that doesn't think 99% of the fault lies with the shooter.
     

    fl57caveman

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    in memory of those who said they were Christians and died for it when they could have said they were not....may the Lord comfort those who remain, and give them peace...turn this into a blessing as only You can......


    By Robert Service,the Soldier of Fortune

    "Deny your God!" they ringed me with their spears;
    Blood-crazed were they, and reeking from the strife;
    Hell-hot their hate, and venom-fanged their sneers,
    And one man spat on me and nursed a knife.
    And there was I, sore wounded and alone,
    I, the last living of my slaughtered band.
    Oh sinister the sky, and cold as stone!
    In one red laugh of horror reeled the land.
    And dazed and desperate I faced their spears,
    And like a flame out-leaped that naked knife,
    And like a serpent stung their bitter jeers:
    "Deny your God, and we will give you life."

    Deny my God! Oh life was very sweet!
    And it is hard in youth and hope to die;
    And there my comrades dear lay at my feet,
    And in that blear of blood soon must I lie.
    And yet . . . I almost laughed -- it seemed so odd,
    For long and long had I not vainly tried
    To reason out and body forth my God,
    And prayed for light, and doubted -- and denied:
    Denied the Being I could not conceive,
    Denied a life-to-be beyond the grave. . . .
    And now they ask me, who do not believe,
    Just to deny, to voice my doubt, to save
    This life of mine that sings so in the sun,
    The bloom of youth yet red upon my cheek,
    My only life! -- O fools! 'tis easy done,
    I will deny . . . and yet I do not speak.

    "Deny your God!" their spears are all agleam,
    And I can see their eyes with blood-lust shine;
    Their snarling voices shrill into a scream,
    And, mad to slay, they quiver for the sign.
    Deny my God! yes, I could do it well;
    Yet if I did, what of my race, my name?
    How they would spit on me, these dogs of hell!
    Spurn me, and put on me the brand of shame.
    A white man's honour! what of that, I say?
    Shall these black curs cry "Coward" in my face?
    They who would perish for their gods of clay --
    Shall I defile my country and my race?
    My country! what's my country to me now?
    Soldier of Fortune, free and far I roam;
    All men are brothers in my heart, I vow;
    The wide and wondrous world is all my home.
    My country! reverent of her splendid Dead,
    Her heroes proud, her martyrs pierced with pain:
    For me her puissant blood was vainly shed;
    For me her drums of battle beat in vain,
    And free I fare, half-heedless of her fate:
    No faith, no flag I owe -- then why not seek
    This last loop-hole of life? Why hesitate?
    I will deny . . . and yet I do not speak.

    "Deny your God!" their spears are poised on high,
    And tense and terrible they wait the word;
    And dark and darker glooms the dreary sky,
    And in that hush of horror no thing stirred.
    Then, through the ringing terror and sheer hate
    Leaped there a vision to me -- Oh, how far!
    A face, Her face . . . through all my stormy fate
    A joy, a strength, a glory and a star.
    Beneath the pines, where lonely camp-fires gleam,
    In seas forlorn, amid the deserts drear,
    How I had gladdened to that face of dream!
    And never, never had it seemed so dear.
    O silken hair that veils the sunny brow!
    O eyes of grey, so tender and so true!
    O lips of smiling sweetness! must I now
    For ever and for ever go from you?
    Ah, yes, I must . . . for if I do this thing,
    How can I look into your face again?
    Knowing you think me more than half a king,
    I with my craven heart, my honour slain.

    No! no! my mind's made up. I gaze above,
    Into that sky insensate as a stone;
    Not for my creed, my country, but my Love
    Will I stand up and meet my death alone.
    Then though it be to utter dark I sink,
    The God that dwells in me is not denied;
    "Best" triumphs over "Beast", -- and so I think
    Humanity itself is glorified. . . .

    "And now, my butchers, I embrace my fate.
    Come! let my heart's blood slake the thirsty sod.
    Curst be the life you offer! Glut your hate!
    Strike! Strike, you dogs! I'll not deny my God."

    I saw the spears that seemed a-leap to slay,
    All quiver earthward at the headman's nod;
    And in a daze of dream I heard him say:
    "Go, set him free who serves so well his God!"
     

    wildrider666

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    They're reporting that he went to a special school for nut cases. Sounds like he had a history mental illness to me.
    *Originally Posted by*wildrider666*

    Notice how bamalama and the media started tossing mental health issues into the lead? Not one fact or lead or rumor that Scumbag had any mental health issues! ...........snip.............

    Posts during "events" are a snap shot of things as known at the time. Just as the higher dead and wounded numbers. Legally, he was not documented as mentally ill to a point where he was identified as being restricted from legal purchase of firearms, including his Army discharge after five weeks in boot camp. Gov had a very close look at his mental health.
     
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    Crazydoc68

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    So on G. Bush's watch from 2000-2008 there were 9 mass shootings. Since 2008 there have been 19. Double the rate.

    So what has happened to us as a people in those 2 time frames that have been making these shitbags more prone to murder en masse?
     

    Little Jack

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    So on G. Bush's watch from 2000-2008 there were 9 mass shootings. Since 2008 there have been 19. Double the rate.

    So what has happened to us as a people in those 2 time frames that have been making these shitbags more prone to murder en masse?

    Not a swipe at you DOC but where do those numbers come from? I ask only because there are wildly different "reports" on those numbers, much like the "school shooting" numbers that get thrown around.

    If both numbers use the definition of 4 deaths or more(think that's the current def) then it would be interesting to hear more info on other factors.

    PS. Got your PM. I have the things you asked about. Not real sure on when we'll be headed that way. No rush. They're yours regardless.
     

    Crazydoc68

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    http://timelines.latimes.com/deadliest-shooting-rampages/

    I read the article wrong. It was the most deadliest shootings all the way back from 1984-2015. I just took the shootings from both of the 2 presidents tenures.....

    Heres the link.

    Update: FBI stats from 2000-2013 state 160 mass shootings. Gang and domestic violence taken out.

    2000-2008: 67

    2008-2013: 93

    Plus remember that 2014-2015 arent included in these numbers. I applogize for not verifying facts first.

    Doc
     
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    JBryan314

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    I'm not gonna defend that shit stain, but Bryan, many of us believe that depression and other mental issues can have severe negative affects on people's decision making skills. Sometimes these issues are temporary, some times chronic.

    Our countries current handling of mental health issues leaves something to be desires, IMO. Someone qouted Wikipedia stating our prisons are being used as an asylum system. This is in fact also taught in criminal justice programs at colleges and universities. Thursday morning I hear a report that face to face discussion as treatment for depression has been misrepresented in publications, who only phblicize positive results, and may be up to 25% less affective than commonly believed. That's a huge %.
    As far as medications, there's plenty of people who think mood altering and psychotropic drugs have negative side affects. At least, the self monitoring use of the drugs is a less than ideal way to administer. And something to consider, I'll bet a number of memebers here think child vaccination is over the top. So I'm not suprised people dislike the wide spread use of medication to treat issues. And old fashioned talking about it may not be as effective as we think. And our country is moving to reduce prison populations, not increase.

    I think everyone here wants to know why it happened, and how to prevent it. Or at least how to react to the next case better. None of us want to see gun control, and none of us like seeing young student blown away for any reason(especially if it's politically or religiously motivated). But I don't doubt there's a memeber on this board that doesn't think 99% of the fault lies with the shooter.

    I hear a lot of people claim our mental health systems leave a lot to be desired but none of them ever seem to know what needs to be done to fix it, besides throw money at it. I never hear anyone say what they think the mental health system can do to prevent something like this.

    The largest mental health system in America is the prison system, and people decry that. But they have no idea why it is that way. Our prisons have infirmaries that administer mental health services to inmates. The fact that a person is mentally ill does not automatically protect them from the possibility of prison time. Prior to my jailbird cousin serving multiple prison sentences (currently in prison) he has no mental health diagnosis. He got to prison, the psychiatrist diagnosed him with anti-social personality disorder, and bam, he's another statistic that adds to the number of mentally ill in the prisons. And then when people see that number, they say that it's not right, it should be that high, yet they don't understand anything about it.

    It's the same mistake they make when they put America down for having the biggest prison population in the world. They ignore the fact that we're more populated than anywhere else beside China and India, and they ignore the fact that the vast majority of Americans are still not afraid to at least speak to a cop on the street to report a crime. MANY people in MANY countries know better than to talk to their police.

    I don't doubt that people on this forum will blame this shitbag for what he did. My frustration lies with the fact that this turd's name will become famous, guns will be blamed, the mental health system that I worked in will be blamed by people who know nothing about it and a man like Chris Mintz, a hero, will mostly be ignored.
     

    FUPAGUNT

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    ^^^ I couldn't have told you shit bag shooters name until you just mentioned it, best thing to do is refer to them as shit bag shooter and leave their name out of it.
     

    MAXman

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    I can't speak for everyone, but I think the issue with prisons used as an asylum is that we wait for people with social/mental/adaptive problems to hurt others before we give them attention. If the statistics point to anything, it's that crazy people commit crimes. Now, I'm not saying we should lock up people with mental/enotional issues Indefinably just in case. That's unconstitutional IMO. But I am saying that if we keep waiting for people that are two colors short of a rainbow to hurt someone, we cannot expect different results than we are getting. What's the solution? Idk, im not a mental health profesional. it's kinda like I don't know how to fix the ignition issues with all the gm's.

    As far as everyone else in the worlds prison systems, police relations, or mental health systems, I honestly don't care. I don't live anywhere else. I'm not plannig on moving to a different country. We,us, citizens of America, are facing an issue of increasing mass shootings. There tends to be a theme where people who commit these acts has mental health issues. I think, personally, we should focus on that, brainstorm amongst ourselves, and petition our goverment to address the issue. I honestly think if we do not, the issue will persist, and a certain group of people will gain traction on a assault weapons ban(or worse). I'm not trying to shit on you or your profesion, I'm sure you do your job as well as you can with the resources and policies in place. And understand I'm not being cute with this next statement, but this is America. Throwing money at problems is how we do things(and has to be, unless you can get people to work for free).

    Personally, mass shootings, class warfare, racial tension, all these things are symptoms of a disease, not actual diseases. I think we should find what the actual cause is and treat that. Is it single parent families? Is it mentally I'll people? Democratic presidents? A "me first, how much" mentality? Idk. But I'm open to discussion about it, and I don't mean calling each ther wrong. I mean discussing what's happening in our country and trying to fix it.

    Is Chris mintz the army vet who charged the gunman, was shot 7 times, and is in the hospitol? I heard, that he said, he wants people not to focus on him and to remember all the victims. This is a totally different subject, but it nearly brings me to tears to think that the same thing that drive him to enlist for a unpopular war, drive him to such a desperate act to stop the attack. I absolutly fucking love veterans, im overwhelmingly happy he survived, and I hope to god the rest of his life will be boring and average. Again man, I'm sorry if my dissatisfaction with mental health care bothers you. Don't take it personal.
     
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    MAXman

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    ^^^ I couldn't have told you shit bag shooters name until you just mentioned it, best thing to do is refer to them as shit bag shooter and leave their name out of it.

    That's how the local sheriff is handling it.(or was).
     

    DSPLCD1

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    Sheltered, isolated, medicated, abused, rejected as a child and into their adult life. Growing into manhood wanting revenge on those that have mistreated them. I don't see it as a mental health issue. I see it being just that, revenge cause he didn't fit in, whether it be to the ones that rejected him or just anyone in his path of destruction. I want revenge and you will pay dearly with you life...
     

    olecarver

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    Sheltered, isolated, medicated, abused, rejected as a child and into their adult life. Growing into manhood wanting revenge on those that have mistreated them. I don't see it as a mental health issue. I see it being just that, revenge cause he didn't fit in, whether it be to the ones that rejected him or just anyone in his path of destruction. I want revenge and you will pay dearly with you life...
    An with that being said, It would seem all those who knew him, interacted with him, past an recent would have spoke up before the so to say ( kettle boiled over ) an the Horrific disaster happen,, As I have looked thru the statements of L/E and witnesses, neighbors and Military from his past,, I Thank God our schools have Armed Resource Officers, that are trained and are at this time still engaging in better training to spot and resolve this kind of thing before it happens,, Our schools have needed this for some time. Taking Firearms away from the people, wont stop these kind of people, They think or should I say study hard on how to have there vengeance, I still say even with the Laws in our state, That not so long ago. Stopped a couple fella traveling into Pensacola, to our schools with Firearms and large amounts of money to visit our schools,, So ( we ) Fla do have eyes and ears watching out.. But the safety of our children can always be improved education,, ( At this time we don't have all the fact on this ) but I know we all agree,,, It should have never happen
     

    JBryan314

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    I can't speak for everyone, but I think the issue with prisons used as an asylum is that we wait for people with social/mental/adaptive problems to hurt others before we give them attention. If the statistics point to anything, it's that crazy people commit crimes. Now, I'm not saying we should lock up people with mental/enotional issues Indefinably just in case. That's unconstitutional IMO. But I am saying that if we keep waiting for people that are two colors short of a rainbow to hurt someone, we cannot expect different results than we are getting. What's the solution? Idk, im not a mental health profesional. it's kinda like I don't know how to fix the ignition issues with all the gm's.

    As far as everyone else in the worlds prison systems, police relations, or mental health systems, I honestly don't care. I don't live anywhere else. I'm not plannig on moving to a different country. We,us, citizens of America, are facing an issue of increasing mass shootings. There tends to be a theme where people who commit these acts has mental health issues. I think, personally, we should focus on that, brainstorm amongst ourselves, and petition our goverment to address the issue. I honestly think if we do not, the issue will persist, and a certain group of people will gain traction on a assault weapons ban(or worse). I'm not trying to shit on you or your profesion, I'm sure you do your job as well as you can with the resources and policies in place. And understand I'm not being cute with this next statement, but this is America. Throwing money at problems is how we do things(and has to be, unless you can get people to work for free).

    Personally, mass shootings, class warfare, racial tension, all these things are symptoms of a disease, not actual diseases. I think we should find what the actual cause is and treat that. Is it single parent families? Is it mentally I'll people? Democratic presidents? A "me first, how much" mentality? Idk. But I'm open to discussion about it, and I don't mean calling each ther wrong. I mean discussing what's happening in our country and trying to fix it.

    Is Chris mintz the army vet who charged the gunman, was shot 7 times, and is in the hospitol? I heard, that he said, he wants people not to focus on him and to remember all the victims. This is a totally different subject, but it nearly brings me to tears to think that the same thing that drive him to enlist for a unpopular war, drive him to such a desperate act to stop the attack. I absolutly fucking love veterans, im overwhelmingly happy he survived, and I hope to god the rest of his life will be boring and average. Again man, I'm sorry if my dissatisfaction with mental health care bothers you. Don't take it personal.

    Are annual mass shootings increasing?

    And in my opinion, to answer your question, most of the ills in American society can be traced back to the erosion of the traditional family unit.
     

    MAXman

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    I dunno, doc posted an article with some statistics earlier in the thread.
    It seems that there have been more of these happening since(from my memory) the Virginia tech shooting until now, than from columbine to the virginia tech. Now, I haven't conducted a personal study reviewing FBI crime statistics or scouring the internet, I'm just running of memory. And maybe the news is now calling everything a mass shooting so the goverment can take our guns. But i hold the opinion that wether it's copy cats/terrorists/revenge killings or whatever, it seems to be happening more often(at least that's the national perception, which is practicaly the same thing).
    And maybe I'm a little bit selfish. If we do universal background checks, that adds the cost when I buy a used gun from armslist.(or I break the law). I feel it's only a matter of time before the state will impose a sales tax on face to face purchases(enacted at the background check, much like when you buy a used car). Next will be a safe storage requirement, which my safe may not pass. More money, or be illegal. They're still pushing 10 round magazines, and la outlawed all high caps regardless of when it was made/purchased. So, $ or crime.

    Personally, i don't want "access to weapons and ammunition" to be the catalyst in these events. Maybe I'm willing to grab onto any possible alternative because of personal bias. But I truley doubt our country will take another year or two of headlines before a "students lives matter" campaign arises. I don't know what us common folk can do, I feel out "representatives" are gonna do whatever they want(and probably get reelected).

    Bryan I hold the same opinion, but all we can really do is not be shitbags ourselves and try to influence who we know not to be shitbags.
     

    wildrider666

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    EU Times is 100% bs. A disinformation site. IP and Domain track to Canada and Panama. This fairy tail is a small fry compared so some of the trash they post. They make the Enquier Rag look like Pulitzer Prize material. If they were to start all their stories with "Once upon a time,.." they would have more creditability.
     

    wildrider666

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    The bottom line IMHO. These events are part of our current disfunctional society. Regardless of the scale of past events and the potential of more: there is nothing that can be done to eliminate them. Even if all individual rights and freedoms were surrendered in the name of public safety and society utopa.

    Alcohol was banned didn't work due to demand and criminal enterprise. Same case with illegal durgs, illegal guns, illegal immigration and of course crimes in general and specifically murder. Governments at all levels that don't enforce the Law, Judges that write their own Laws or interpret them with political bias contribute dramatically to the downward spiral of society. Our Society is what we make it, through action, willful inaction and apathy; what we allow it to be: it is.

    Let us say there has been a a thousand mass murderers in the U.S. Do we as the remaining 321 million Citizens sacrifice all our rights due to the criminals behavior? In our current society is this the "common sense solution"? Is this any different then a thosand murdering terrorists demanding our surrender? It varies only in the murders are done by others and advocacy groups and politicians are making the demands. Doesn't ISIS exploite death and horror to achieve their goals the same way?

    I have great sympathy for the loss of innocent life and the grief of their Families. I am not swayed on my support of Constitutional issues by it. I will accept neither implied blame, burden or sacrifice for the actions of criminals. We must ensure that every man, woman and child is held accountable for their own criminal actions. Blood shed by them is not on my hands. I am my brothers keeper. Some I will gladly keep in jail, death row or boot hill as they have worked to hard to get their.
     

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