For the "weaker gender"

schavey · Apr 21, 2014

If your female friend loves shooting, but has great trouble with [please forgive me] jacking the slide, you need to take a look at the new Shot Show announced, EAA Tanfoglio Witness "PAVONA". The Witness is a good clone of the much honored CZ75-B. The EAA video hyped the Pavona as a special project of Tanfoglio, by and for females. Briefly, they did redesign it with an easing of the slide, but they did not change the size and geometry for smaller and weaker hands/wrists. It[9mm] is a double stack holding 13 rounds, with great heft and balance that my petite wife loves.

We can forgive the obsolete marketing theory that females want pink frame pistols, but Tanfoglio goes a lot further; You can get a Pavona in 380, 9mm, 40S&W, and choose your glittery frame colors from all-black, silver over black, lavender/pink, blue and purple.

Report from a 4'9" very small handed, but tough, RN female: She loves it and proceeded to shoot the center out of the target at about 10 meters.
It has the CZ rail system to reduce recoil, and IMO, the build quality is superb.

It would be a great Mothers Day present, at a reasonable price!!:usa2:

Champ62 · Apr 21, 2014

http://eaacorp.com/2013/11/eaa-9mm-witness-pavona/

Hossfly72 · Apr 21, 2014

I showed that to the wife. Her exact reply was, "Oh HELL NO! That's hideous!" She found the black one and the silvery glitter and black one acceptable though.
I just bought a SAR B6P Compact that looks just like it, so I'm wondering if Tanfoglia and SarArms are marketing it together. The slide on the Sar is NOT easy to rack though, but it's still very new.

Seanpcola · Apr 21, 2014

Hossfly72 said:
I showed that to the wife. Her exact reply was, "Oh HELL NO! That's hideous!" She found the black one and the silvery glitter and black one acceptable though.
I just bought a SAR B6P Compact that looks just like it, so I'm wondering if Tanfoglia and SarArms are marketing it together. The slide on the Sar is NOT easy to rack though, but it's still very new.

Laurie needs one in zombie green.

Want2yak · Apr 21, 2014

Wife want to look at one. Any out yet in Destin FWB area

Sent from my iPad

bluedog46 · Apr 21, 2014

Looks kinda cool. I have some female friends often ask me thoughts on a "first gun". I will add this to the list.

schavey · Apr 22, 2014

If she is just learning, I suggest a Walther P-22, then transitioning to a Walther PK-380 to get familiar with handling louder report and more recoil.The profiles of both pistols are almost identical

TraderDan · Apr 22, 2014

And the walther or S&W version has a very easy slide and great shooters too.

schavey · Apr 22, 2014

S&W Version???

Gravity3694 · Apr 22, 2014

Just more useless products that projects the false thought that women are too stupid or weak to choose their own firearm.

Other than style, there's no reason why we need gender specific firearms or accessories.

Want2yak · Apr 22, 2014

What's wrong with gender specific? The way I see it the more women that get interested in shooting the more people to vote against gun control. Also my mother is 73 she is not week or stupid but she does like to shoot. She has authritas in her hands the only thing she can shoot currently that we have found is a revolver. My wife is not stupid but can't pull the slide on my 1911's, lc9 or lcp at least not in a hurry. But she hasn't been shooting all her life either. If someone builds a pretty gun that gets her more interested in the hobby That she could master and enjoy I will gladly spend the money.

Sent from my iPad

sj1 · Apr 23, 2014

This is just for the purpose of discussion, but my wife believes that guns should look like guns. We have three grandchildren, and we don't think that bright, enticing colors are a good idea for guns in our house. That's our house, it may not be yours, but that's OK with me. As far as shooting is concerned, my wife and myself have had several defensive handguns. I can't say that any belonged to either of us specifically, because she would always take the one the worked best for her. It was that simple. Color didn't matter, brand name didn't matter, as long as she can draw and hit, she's cool. Her favorite was our Ruger SP101 snubby, in .357 Magnum. With some 125 grain .38 special loads, she could scare a bad guy to death from 50 feet, just by showing him a target. She hated my .....Our....P22. Even though she hit targets, she didn't like the gun. the sights sucked on that one, it was a really early version She loved the fact that the Beretta 21A had a tip-up barrel, so she didn't have to rack a slide. That's not a statement based on gender, that's a statement based on knowing my wife for 17 years, and the fact that her career has left her with some joint pain issues. others may have different issues. It's been a journey, and will continue to be interesting, especially with the grandchildren, but self defense and exercising the right to self defense should never be stereotyped by gender, or any other reason. It's our right, and we should defend it, and support it. If some pink tiger-striped guns help anyone get into shooting, I'm good with it.

schavey · Apr 23, 2014

The Pavona is a "project", which means it is on-going, and improvements will be made, both mechanical design-wise and cosmetic-wise. I have worked as a human factors engineer, and I am totally aware that the handgun manufacturers have not given any real consideration to FITTING women. [If there is a reason why "gender-specific" is necessary, you will find it at any of the big name shooting schools, observing the difficulties the female students have with their one-size-fits-all pistols.] BUT now the manufacturers have a real market, and there is MONEY to be made by meeting the needs of female shooters.
To call this attempt, and the resulting product "useless" is totally unfair, and in-valid. It shoots as well as most major brand 9mms I have shot-- and that includes all of the big names. It emulates the revered CZ-75B very well, and I doubt Tanfoglio's marketing strategy considers this gigantic market, collectively as "too stupid or weak to choose their own firearm". Their war is NOT ON women. Their war is to gain as much of a new market share as they can, before their competitors wake up. THAT will be done by meeting the customers' needs, as perfectly as they can. YMMV.

BY THE WAY, I AM NOT AN EMPLOYEE OF EAA OR TANFOGLIO

Gravity3694 · Apr 23, 2014

Want2yak said:
What's wrong with gender specific? The way I see it the more women that get interested in shooting the more people to vote against gun control. Also my mother is 73 she is not week or stupid but she does like to shoot. She has authritas in her hands the only thing she can shoot currently that we have found is a revolver. My wife is not stupid but can't pull the slide on my 1911's, lc9 or lcp at least not in a hurry. But she hasn't been shooting all her life either. If someone builds a pretty gun that gets her more interested in the hobby That she could master and enjoy I will gladly spend the money.

Sent from my iPad

I never said that they were too stupid or weak. Medical issues aside (happens to males too) I see no reason for gender specific firearms. Styling and marketing are a different story though and anything that can be done to attract women is a good thing.
However, with proper training I've found that most women can handle the same black full sized handguns that men do with no problem. Furthermore, if she can drive, put on makeup and adjust the radio at the same time she can use a semi-auto. I've never understood why a lot of men believe that women can't use a "complex" semi-auto such as a Glock and instead foist a revolver on them.
If the black standard CZ75 is good then why would we need a female version (other than styling which is always personal)?

Champ62 · Apr 23, 2014

If she has a baggy black Muu-Muu, why would she need that sexy red little dress? They serve the same purpose.........don't they?

Hossfly72 · Apr 23, 2014

But Schavey, if you WERE an employee of EAA or Tanfoglio, could you get me a discount?
I'm a big fan of their products! Or maybe a holster that'll fit that "lady's gun" (which I actually want in the black and silver glitter!) or my SAR B6P compact?

schavey · Apr 24, 2014

It is probably somewhat academic, as to whether I could get you a discount, since I am not an employee. My wife's all-black Pavona [perfectly] fits any of our holsters that also fit our erstwhile Glock 23. Her favorite carry holster is a Blade-Tech mounted on a Blackhawk drop-offset attachment, for large and/or curvy hips. My Blackhawk Serpa also fits her Pavona, but is not nearly as comfortable, or ergonomic. If the dimensions and geometry of your SAR are essentially similar to the Pavona, such holsters should be fine. One way to check it out without large expenditures, is to buy a rudimentary GLOCK belt holster and try out both pistols. That holster usually costs under $15.00. Good hunting!!

schavey · Apr 24, 2014

Well--let's examine the relative validity of your arguments. What is the sample size of your observation of what ""MOST" women can do with "no problem"? My sample size is hundreds of classes of women taking demanding, multi day, defensive handgun courses under the tutelage of professional instructors. Lots of operating problems there.
What is the correlation between properly driving, putting on makeup, adjusting the radio at the same time--with properly shooting a semi-automatic? I have read many operational research studies, but have NEVER seen a study that validates your opinion.
What is your definition of the term "a lot of men"? I have discussed the beliefs and attitudes that prominent shooting instructors have vis-a-vis how to initiate on-going instruction for new women shooters. NONE have the belief system you have asserted, and they do not advocate the FOISTING of revolvers.
YES, the polymer or steel version of the CZ-75B is a premier handgun---WHY DO WE NEED a "female version" of that handgun or any hangun to be used defensively? WE DON'T, unless we want these folks to be able, reliably, to jack the slide, reach the safety lever with their thumbs, have their grip so stable as to handle the recoil and at the same time, under duress, have their trigger fingers reliably reach the pull distance WITHOUT wrist-cant that causes the disasterous effects of "limp-wristing" [Type I, II, & III malfunctions]. Styling does nothing to solve such serious potential problems, but serious human factors engineering does.

Gravity3694 · Apr 24, 2014

schavey said:
Well--let's examine the relative validity of your arguments. What is the sample size of your observation of what ""MOST" women can do with "no problem"? My sample size is hundreds of classes of women taking demanding, multi day, defensive handgun courses under the tutelage of professional instructors. Lots of problems there.
What is the correlation between properly driving, putting on makeup, adjusting the radio at the same time--with properly shooting a semi-automatic? I have read many operational research studies, but have NEVER seen a study that validates your opinion.
What is your definition of the term "a lot of men"? I have discussed the beliefs and attitudes that prominent shooting instructors have vis-a-vis how to initiate on-going instruction for new women shooters. NONE have the belief system you have asserted, and they do not advocate the FOISTING of revolvers.
YES, the polymer or tempered steel version of the CZ-75B is a premier handgun---why do we need a "female version" of that handgun or any hangun to be used defensively? WE DON'T, unless we want these folks to be able, reliably, to jack the slide, reach the safety lever with their thumbs, have their grip so stable as to handle the recoil and at the same time, under duress, have their trigger fingers reliably reach the pull distance WITHOUT wrist-cant that causes the disasterous effects of "limp-wristing" [Type I, II, &III malfunctions]. Styling does nothing to solve such serious potential problems, but serious human factors engineering does.

Well lets examine the substantive validity of why we really don't need gender specific firearms or products. From casual observation women are viewed different because the firearm culture is male dominated and at times females aren't welcomed properly. The men who I dislike the most are the ones who try to protect women by giving bad recommendations. While their interest is genuine, its silly to think that women are weak and can't handle to the same handguns that men do. Or some will say that a semi-auto is too complicated for women (can be said of any new shooter irrespective of gender). Therefore, someone will end up recommending upon assumption say a 22 revolver or something similar.

Both you and I know that from construct validity at defensive handgun courses that this is completely false and that women can equally utilize firearms as well as males. I've never met any instructor or have heard the opinion of a instructor who's discounted a female's ability after proper training. Females can handle the same guns that the males do. The only unique consideration I've seen from working with women are size issues, however men can have the same issues as well so this is a moot point.

Bottom line is that whatever someone gets training is key. I firmly believe that new gun owners are new gun owners not male or female gun owner. Well designed hardware is a good platform but how the software runs it is more important. I just think that a good number of men have done a disservice to women in the firearm community by not respecting them on the same plane as their male counterparts. Little words such as defining them as "weaker" or gawking at their presence on the range do nothing to help them or to grow them into better shooters.

schavey · Apr 24, 2014

Nice deflection attempt. WHERE is the "substantive validity"? What "construct validity" are you talking about? I do not intend to continue this discussion in its present form. You did not even do us the courtesy of responding to my last paragraph. I will leave you to your opinions and suggest you might want to read some research. The thrust of your argument seems to be sociological. Mine is operational safety, efficiency, and effectiveness oriented. Therefore it would seem there is no middle ground. You may find the work for Law Enforcement people interesting. I commend to you the work of Joel J. Hebert

www3.scienceblog.com/community/older/2001/B/200112206.html

IF THIS ADDRESS DOES NOT WORK, THE NAME OF THE SCIENCE BLOG ARTICLE IS:

"HAND SIZE COUNTS IN SAFE HANDGUN USE"

JUST FOR THE RECORD: I AM NOT A MISOGYNIST.

Please read the new forum rules! REQUIRED!

Click Here: https://www.gulfcoastgunforum.com/threads/general-forum-rules-code-of-conduct.70770/

For the "weaker gender"

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