Stomping Toes and pulling Fingernails.

[Crabbyguy]

Are we to think we need to justify the 5.56, sibling .223 and the AR? And be bracketed into a very limited hunting scenario so an antiquated 30-30 cartridge and common lever action can be debated to give the 30-30 a potential edge? Don't go outside the Lines so OP can maintain some ground to stand on? Well, I'm moving my fingers and toes and not playing by your rules.

Who says a semi-auto 5.56 is restricted to Hunting Bamby at any yardage. Let's not play slap and tickle with the hunting scenario.
How about multiple BGs doing a home invasions? ARs have been used successfully several times. How about the Church shooter that was challenged and chased off and persued by a guy that got his AR from his house. Neither of these type events would be better servered by a 30-30 which is most common in a lever action which generally is slower to cycle, less accurate, less initial capacity and slower to reload. There's a lot of odsurdites being tossed by OP. Sure, all types of guns are used to attempt to discourage home threats. BUT the bigger and practical reality is what do "we" and OP use? Is his choice a 38Spl with 5-7shots and that is all he keeps available? Does he argue for what he doesn't do himself? Poachers kill elephants with AKs, a 5.56/.223 AR capable of killing a deer if a person desires to do so.

The AR is for repelling boarders/stopping Threats and does so up close and well beyond 150 meters. OPs question is actually silly if you boil it down to where it really matters (and Bambi ain't it): Your going to do battle, you and your opponent can chose either a 30-30 or a 5.56 semi-auto AR: Pick and answer. NO: well if we're limited to 150 yards, blah, blah blah. So let's not play hypothetical and very limited scenario comparisons with two totally different calibers, desighned fordifferent puposes and use in different platforms.

There's a dozen better cartridges for deer hunting. Even with the newer 30-30 poly point tip ammo it's still a ballistically poor choice even at your limited 150 yards: hit the plate or POI within 1.5 MOA of POA? Yeah, there's the plinking thing, target thing, varmint thing and competition stuff but that's not the reason I own ARs. And yes, most of them are true gas piston and not piston hybrids or DI.

We could use a Poll: Do exclusively you use a 30-30 for deer hunting every year? Yes or No. If its still the greatest thing since buttered bread, there's no reason to use a "lesser cartridge". 30-30 Is hanging around only because a. The average joe who wants a lever action buys .22LR or 30-30, other catridges are either not as common or too powerful. b. There's a crap load of them out there since 1895. c. Optics that the common man could afford weren't available for at least the first 1/3 of its production. d. It's a mild 30 caliber cartridge. However, anybody that wants accuracy out of the box chooses anything but a lever gun, the Bands, forestock and fed tube are inherently adverse towards accuracy but people didnt care much because the cartridge was so limited anyway. Top ejection is a optics problem for some models, your not going to get close to bore axis. So if we compare the 30-30 lever action to other deer cartidges and actions the best that can be said is its adequate at closer ranges and the ever popular: its light and handy. You might want to check actual db level for the 30-30 and the 5.56 (which is slightly lower, indoors and without ear protection both will hurt.

How often do you see 30-30s in Camps or when you cross paths with other hunters? Last time I saw one was taking the Wife's Grandparents out for a day hunt in 95. One 30-30 Winchester with buckhorn sight and a sporterized 30-40 Krag. We had a nice easy day and it was their last hunt. Lol

Life isn't a Zombie movie but its not a TV western either. There's better tools for Bambi and BGs than the out classed and dated 30-30. YMMV, so I'll let you go back to your story plot. Lol

Thank you! Nuff said.

 

[Raven]

Thank you! Nuff said.

Yeah what he said

 

[M118LR]

Are we to think we need to justify the 5.56, sibling .223 and the AR? And be bracketed into a very limited hunting scenario so an antiquated 30-30 cartridge and common lever action can be debated to give the 30-30 a potential edge?

Don't go outside the Lines so OP can maintain some ground to stand on? Well, I'm moving my fingers and toes and not playing by your rules.

Who says a semi-auto 5.56 is restricted to Hunting Bamby at any yardage. Let's not play slap and tickle with the hunting scenario.


How about multiple BGs doing a home invasions? ARs have been used successfully several times. How about the Church shooter that was challenged and chased off and persued by a guy that got his AR from his house. Neither of these type events would be better servered by a 30-30 which is most common in a lever action which generally is slower to cycle, less accurate, less initial capacity and slower to reload. There's a lot of odsurdites being tossed by OP. Sure, all types of guns are used to attempt to discourage home threats. BUT the bigger and practical reality is what do "we" and OP use? Is his choice a 38Spl with 5-7shots and that is all he keeps available? Does he argue for what he doesn't do himself? Poachers kill elephants with AKs, a 5.56/.223 AR capable of killing a deer if a person desires to do so.

The AR is for repelling boarders/stopping Threats and does so up close and well beyond 150 meters. OPs question is actually silly if you boil it down to where it really matters (and Bambi ain't it): Your going to do battle, you and your opponent can chose either a 30-30 or a 5.56 semi-auto AR: Pick and answer. NO: well if we're limited to 150 yards, blah, blah blah. So let's not play hypothetical and very limited scenario comparisons with two totally different calibers, desighned fordifferent puposes and use in different platforms.


Life isn't a Zombie movie but its not a TV western either. There's better tools for Bambi and BGs than the out classed and dated 30-30. YMMV, so I'll let you go back to your story plot. Lol

Sorry I cut you a bit short. Great Response OBTW.

"Don't go outside the Lines so OP can maintain some ground to stand on? Well, I'm moving my fingers and toes and not playing by your rules."

Not sure why you are pontificating on the 30-30, all I stated was that it performed better on hogs at 150 yards than the .223/5.56. So I nipped that section of the rant out. Hope you don't mind.

Now about that multiple aggressor Home Invasion?

We both know that Home Defense is a multilayered system of firearms beginning with .45 ACP sidearm on the bedroom headboard, which takes you to the cruiser gripped 16 inch barreled 8 shot pump action near the bedroom closet that makes maneuvering through 26-30 inch interior doorways a bit of a challenge even with it's short length. Now even with a collapsible butt stock, a 16 inch semi auto AR isn't going to come into play until your at the 36 inch exterior door. Not to mention that the choreography of "JOHN WICK" may make it look simple to neutralize multiple aggressors within a confined space, the reality is much different. So game consoles aside, the .223/5.56 Semi-automatic 16 inch barreled AR is not the "be all end all" of Home Defense. It may be one of the tools in the toolbox, but it'll depend on where your at as to if it's more of a hindrance than a help.

As to the poachers running thier elephant trap lines in Africa, the "Spoils of War" full automatic AK's are used to evade Game Wardens, " Karamojo Bell" they AIN'T.

W. D. M. Bell - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Like "Dirty Harry" says, you have to know your limitations, and so it is with the .223/5.56. I use it combined with an NVS to reduce SCOPE EYE for hogs inside of 75 yards in the dark. Come daylight thier are many other calibers that perform at far greater range with much more authority. Just My Experience.

 

[Rebel_Rider1969]

Here drag it into the 22nd century!

 

[M118LR]

Here drag it into the 22nd century!

These seem to be more 22nd century:

Savage Model 99 - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Browning BLR - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[Raven]

Had the Lone Ranger, Zorro and Custer been given the opportunity to have AR's over the lever guns, you bet your ass you know what would have happened

 

[M118LR]

Had the Lone Ranger, Zorro and Custer been given the opportunity to have AR's over the lever guns, you bet your ass you know what would have happened

Why Tonto would have taken the Lone Rangers AR to town and the Townsfolk would have taken it away from him while roughing him up!
Zorro would have dropped his AR while swinging from a flagpole atop a building and it would have shattered into a thousand plastic pieces in the square!
Clusters AR would have jammed (like most of the other early M16's) and the Folks of the First Nations would have traded it off when they expended all the ammo!

Is that what you meant Raven? (LOL)

Got to love TV. LOL

 

[Crabbyguy]

*rolling my eyes.

 

[ccc]

Go out and look in your toolbox, do you have one size Phillips head and one size flat head so you only have two screwdrivers ? I sure hope not, because you need different tools for different jobs. I have a 30-30 and I have several AR’s, all set up to perform different tasks. Would I hunt white tail deer in our area with an AR ? YES CONFIDENTLY !!!!!! Do I ? No. Every gun I have is a tool for a specific task, but if I could only have one to provide meat on the table AND to protect my family it would be an AR.

 

[Bowhntr6pt]

"Could ever hope for"... that's an interesting statement... as I've stone-cold killed deer and hogs easily at those distances, and well beyond with alternative chamberings as demonstrated by my earlier posts in the hunting section, using hand loaded Speer 70gr semi-spitzer pushed by 26.0grs W-748.

What else is there to "hope for" when using the .223 vs. the .30-30 with a well-placed shot that results in a quick, clean, effective kill?

I haven't killed anything with a .30-30... I suppose it guts, cuts up, packages, and totes the meat to the truck upon impact... that's about the only thing I see hoping for above and beyond an effective kill... which is all I ever hope for.

 

[Rebel_Rider1969]

"Could ever hope for"... that's an interesting statement... as I've stone-cold killed deer and hogs easily at those distances, and well beyond with alternative chamberings as demonstrated by my earlier posts in the hunting section, using hand loaded Speer 70gr semi-spitzer pushed by 26.0grs W-748.

What else is there to "hope for" when using the .223 vs. the .30-30 with a well-placed shot that results in a quick, clean, effective kill?

I haven't killed anything with a .30-30... I suppose it guts, cuts up, packages, and totes the meat to the truck upon impact... that's about the only thing I see hoping for above and beyond an effective kill... which is all I ever hope for.

That's the 6.5 C...

 

[wildrider666]

Both cartridges are easily capable of killing a deer, when hunters do their part effectively. A dead deer is a dead deer and that can't be argued and neither is "more dead" than the other. "But, but one is ballistically better for dead right there (DRT) @ XXX distance!" Really? A CNS hit with either cartridge will do that, no difference. But what if we get into body vital organ hits?

DRT is desired but deer don't always follow the script. I tagged a muley with a Rem 30.06 Corelock @ 75(+-) yards and the terminal ballistics were surely "superior" to the two cartridges being compared. The buck took off in afterburner with hardly any blood trail. Luckily, he went in a pretty straight line and I found him about 45 yards from POI. He has a nickle size hole through the heart surrounded by a 2.5" creater and stretch tears 360° almost to the outer edges and the bullet went through the bottom of both lungs. He didn't "pump" bleed out, he ran until blood/organs were oxygen depleted and shut down. A deer responds to stimulus (shot): and if able, they will try to get away. So while terminal ballistics are very important, the deer more often than not decides how the final scene plays out: therefore, a varabile that will always apply. Same thing is possibly with the lesser 30-30 and 5.56. But the end result: is still a dead deer.

I noticed the "Moving into the 22nd Century" rifles. Neither is tube feed, the Savage ended production in 98 and and the BLR was specifically designed to eliminate "tube feed" so Spitzer type bullets could be used and greatly expand rifle caliber offerings, it was never chambered in the 30-30 Win.

 

[Bowhntr6pt]

Both cartridges are easily capable of killing a deer, when hunters do their part effectively. A dead deer is a dead deer and that can't be argued and neither is "more dead" than the other. "But, but one is ballistically better for dead right there (DRT) @ XXX distance!" Really? A CNS hit with either cartridge will do that, no difference. But what if we get into body vital organ hits?

DRT is desired but deer don't always follow the script. I tagged a muley with a Rem 30.06 Corelock @ 75(+-) yards and the terminal ballistics were surely "superior" to the two cartridges being compared. The buck took off in afterburner with hardly any blood trail. Luckily, he went in a pretty straight line and I found him about 45 yards from POI. He has a nickle size hole through the heart surrounded by a 2.5" creater and stretch tears 360° almost to the outer edges and the bullet went through the bottom of both lungs. He didn't "pump" bleed out, he ran until blood/organs were oxygen depleted and shut down. A deer responds to stimulus (shot): and if able, they will try to get away. So while terminal ballistics are very important, the deer more often than not decides how the final scene plays out: therefore, a varabile that will always apply. Same thing is possibly with the lesser 30-30 and 5.56. But the end result: is still a dead deer.

I noticed the "Moving into the 22nd Century" rifles. Neither is tube feed, the Savage ended production in 98 and and the BLR was specifically designed to eliminate "tube feed" so Spitzer type bullets could be used and greatly expand rifle caliber offerings, it was never chambered in the 30-30 Win.

Your experience mirrors mine... I've shot deer with a nice placement right behind the shoulder with .30-06 and .270 (with respectable exit wounds) and have had them run between 50-100 yards before piling up.

Yep, deer do amazing things when hit in an acceptable area that's not the spine or head.

 

[Bowhntr6pt]

That's the 6.5 C...

LOL... with the 6.5C you don't even have to go get in the stand... the deer just appear in the freezer.

 

[Rebel_Rider1969]

LOL... with the 6.5C you don't even have to go get in the stand... the deer just appear in the freezer.

Now I've heard ya just pull up, point it out the window pull the trigger and the bullet finds the 10pt buck or what ever x setting you have on the scope

 

[Crabbyguy]

Now I've heard ya just pull up, point it out the window pull the trigger and the bullet finds the 10pt buck or what ever x setting you have on the scope

Well that settles it for me all my rifles will now be 6.5C. I’ve been doing it wrong for so long now. Is that what your wife uses rebel? She seems to drop everything in the woods around her, or maybe she’s just a damn good hunter!?!?

 

[Rebel_Rider1969]

Well that settles it for me all my rifles will now be 6.5C. I’ve been doing it wrong for so long now. Is that what your wife uses rebel? She seems to drop everything in the woods around her, or maybe she’s just a damn good hunter!?!?

Nope. Rem 700 vtr .308. W Bushnell elite. Tried to get her to switch to something lighter, nope. Offered to buy better glass, nope. "From my cold dead hands" was her response....lol. She's much more patient and quiet than I am. She'll let those bucks wander around the plot for 15-20 minutes till she has a perfect shot.

 

[poppop]

So it's time to converse about Civilian use of the M16/M4.

Sometimes the TRUTH HURTS.

The best trained SOCOM Operators require piston driven AR's even if they regularly perform 3 round trigger bursts Professionally with Full Automatic firearms.

Yet DI AR's perform better at the local 100 yard range on paper targets.

So since a properly placed 30-30 performs better harvesting game animals at 150 yards, than the 5.56 can hope to perform! Just what does a Semi-Automatic 5.56 offer that a civilian can realistically accomplish??????

Toss those sticks and stones, but keep the Zombie World on the TV with the Game Controller.

And Yes, I've hunted Piggly Wiggly on moonless nights, so this ain't a prank!

because its my Right to own them

 

[M118LR]

because its my Right to own them

Who said anything about you couldn't own them?????

Just what does a Semi-Automatic 5.56 offer that a civilian can realistically accomplish??????

The .223/5.56 AR has distinguished itself as a fine Target Rifle holding many awards & records on paper targets to medium distances. But the DI version appears to be better suited to this task than Piston Driven Varieties.

A minority of States allow the .223/5.56 AR for Deer/Hog Game Hunting.

 

[wildrider666]

Just what does a Semi-Automatic 5.56 offer that a civilian can realistically accomplish??????

Asked and ANSWERED multiple times. It's still cheaper than the vast majority of center fire rounds, has low recoil, allows shooter to optically stay on target(s) and cycles for faster follow up shot(s) or engagement of multiple targets like the following:
Boar, deer, antelope, yotes, prairie dogs, jack rabbits, nutria, wild invasive goats, coons, rock chuck, marmot, ground squirrel and crow: multiple animal = multiple shots = Semi-Auto. For the mere fact of "wanting" a faster follow up shot, no matter "what" your shooting: is more then enough justification on its own and so is any application towards personal defense. It was extremely popular with Aussies for "Roo" population control until they banned it. However, their gov still uses it for that purpose.

Do 8-9 million 5.56/.223 semi-auto rifle owners hunt those animals? No. It has other uses as have also been identified in other comments. You apparantly abandoned the loosing 30-30 comparison and now are playing a "that a civilian can realistically accomplish" angle. You keep po pooing every sensible answer that has been provided to you. Are you just eliminating every possible use except that common AW ban cry that there's only one use for weapons of war shit? Is that the agenda you are trying to push? Spit it out and be done with it.